Two sides of the Atlantic. . .

Two sides of the Atlantic. . .

Postby garethace » Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:32 pm

I have to accept as a young architect growing up in this country now, that alot of the new softwares, new techniques to visualise 2D data in 3 dimensions... all of that really does belong in a fast-tracked process of architectural design/planning/visualisation that only exists presently in the United States. And in Ireland, we tend to take 10/20/30/40 years, to do what American professionals manage to combine together and do in 2/3 years.

Look at the Luas fiasco for example, what does that say about this country?
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Postby sw101 » Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:28 pm

what are you talking about? hack it down to a paragraph at a time and ppl might actual read it and reply. i'm too goddam busy to read a 1000 word rant. what are you trying to ask? or are you just telling us what you think and to hell with it?
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Postby garethace » Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:49 pm

One paragraph, I see your point. Does look neater indeed.
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Postby sw101 » Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:41 pm

in response to your revised utterances;

the luas says a hell of a lot of good about this country. all the visualisation and 3d representation of an army of technicians couldnt hurry this project along. these things only happen when the relevant councils, authorities, planners, land owners and objectors come to a disagreeable agreement whereby nobody is satisfied and a hodge podge version of the ideal is achieved. in a city where the oppurtunity of reopening the harcourt street line over the last few years is still not achieved becaused of beuracracy and stalled progress, its amazing the luas is even approaching completion.

this isnt really an arguement about the ability of professions to come together to achieve efficient success, but about all the powerful but ineffectual amateurs who hold up the whole show in this old boys club of rich farmers we call a leadership
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Postby garethace » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:01 pm

Did you know that many of the politians you are referring to actaully owned fleets of taxi plates? Like that famous clip of the Taxi drivers on O'Connell bridge - don't push the Ush. I suggest sitting down this evening and renting the DVD edition of Gangs of New York. Then watching the special features, where it describes the growth of Fire departments, police forces and so on, in the early Nineteenth century New York. Just because we inherited a splendid example of Georgian city building, doesn't imply that we have the required evolution in government as yet to keep it running as it should do. Hell we cannot even govern what is going on in small architectural practices not to mind a whole country - its a free for all. So why exactly do American companies investing here in factories etc, insist upon flying in special Project Managers from London on monthly visits, to ensure the design process is kept on schedule?
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Postby sw101 » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:09 pm

i dont care about fire engines in new york. personally i think its a problem to hold up examples of foreign methods and cry about us not adopting them as they are set out. why cant we establish our own modus operandi and try to create a coherent efficient establishment of our own? i'll tell you why, those same self promoting political animals that run the government and industry and transport etc, who are all out to make gains for themselves alone. its interesting (but redundant) that you refer to gangs of new york, those same abusive gangsters with respect only for the fist and the dollar are still in charge boyo.

i suggest you read and watch the works of michael moore, gives a slightly different perspective on the savage development of america and its peoples and industry. people have to matter first. and the retention of an identity we can be proud of, and a framework to grow as a country, not just an elitist corporation of successful individuals who climb on top via the backs of discarded working classes
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Postby notjim » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:15 pm

so the thing about nyc is that it is missing a subway line along 1st av and they have been talking about it for a million years and getting nowhere and when after a million years of talking about a rail link to jfk they finally built it, it stops on long island so you still have to change to the subway. the difference between here and nyc as far as getting stuff done is concerned is that they have more money and less space.
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Postby garethace » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:34 pm

Well, the simple point i had to make, was that while Americans come to see our fair land, full of castles from the 12th century, and old manuscripts. We tend to forget, that America has probably got more self-governing history under its own belt than we do. I find it particularly strange for instance, how no proper bone-fide planning course yet exists in this country. And the Architectural profession in this country have taken it upon themselves to get really angry over issues completely outside the remit of architecture - that of urbanisation and eGovernment etc. This has destroyed the hopes of the Irish Architectural profession ever defining itself properly as Architects. Since this tag-on 'Town Planning' label, is always like a dead weight carried around by the 'Architecture' part. This country will never produce one Architect worth his/her salt, without 'dropping' the Town Planning part, in the 'Department of Architecture and Town Planning' in Bolton Street. Likewise out in Richview.

I consider this to be an insult to me as a young Architect trying to grow up and learn in this country. Since i would love to have grown up with good mentors/professors who were focussed firmly upon Architecture. Rather than been totally distracted in picking fights with a couple of suit-wearing civil servants down in the Planning Authority, who wouldn't know either Ville Moderne or New Urbanism if it hit them with a barge pole. Thankyou Architectural professionals of Ireland, you have all been a f****** treat to work with.
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Postby sw101 » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:38 pm

.....and relax. this country is well capable of producing great architects. but less likely to produce great architecture because we cant afford it and few outside of the small architecture community can open their eyes to the possibility. Bitterness gets you nowhere.
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Postby garethace » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:48 pm

I am not sure who is being bitter actually. I didn't mention anything about building good architecture - i only meant the TRAINING of good Architects, who don't have to grow up all twisted, warped and full of bile because Dad and Mom are bitter over the Government and Planning situation.

I have listened to a very talented public speaker from Group '91 harp on for a whole hour about how Dublin Corporation sabotaged their pedestrian bridge. Does it not strike you as strange that everything is always defensive and negative? I mean, in my own book, attack has always been the best form of defense. That is the only reason why i believe in using new tools, remaining positive and approaching the future with enthuasiasm.

Unfortunately, in architectural schools in Dublin, it is like the TV commercial about the guy fixing his car, and having bits left over in a jar having finished. I wonder what are those bits left in a jar, after Irish Architecture schools have finished with you? Those parts that prevent the engine from starting? If you want to believe all the bitterness and resentment of government you have - why do you so insist upon indoctrinating a whole new generation with the same - before their lives have even started?
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Postby sw101 » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:55 pm

what? i'm 21 and more idealistic than you'll ever see. but i'm slightly more reality driven it seems. theres a marked difference between going ahead with your chin held high and your head up, compared to a head in the clouds. we wont suddenly become america because its a good idea. small yet fundamental changes must be made and only controlled rebellion and graft will accomplish that. not whinging and dropping names of wholly uncomparable successes on other continents.

i'm sorry to hear you forgot your jar but dammit you're the one that left it there, stop blaming establishment, it just doesnt wash
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Postby garethace » Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:10 pm

Well i am 29, and by the time, you reach that age - you will learn that noone wants to hear about how bad the government is, it just will not get you anywhere, even if there was a glimmer of hope. And this supposition that Clients are unsophisticated nowadays in Ireland doesn't wash either. I mean, i did visuals for a 1 million pound house built by a big American exec in an Irish Tech company. The only problem was, by the time, i was brought in on the project, the house was at eves level.

ANyhow, i gave my visuals on CDROM to the clients wife, who by herself was able to send the lot over the husband in America. He was surprised to see such late arrival of computer visuals for a house that was already at eaves level on site in Ireland. If the clients (wife/husband) had got the visuals 6-months earlier, or a year earlier, they would have been much happier clients. So we as architects need to become a little bit more sophisticated than we are at the moment in Ireland. Or else pay people to come in, as you have suggested, WISELY in previous posts.

Anyhow, the wife came in with a very valid criticism that the visuals would have helped earlier on. The architect had got a number of trained visualists outside the firm, he could have employed, but opted not to. So instead of agreeing with the client, saying yeah, we should have had visuals, what did the old b**** of an architect do? Adopted an indignant pose, told the client to F off, and in the process became totally negative and resentful of all computer technology.

I couldn't work much longer i can tell you under these kinds of conditions, and leave a year after. This is the mentors we have in the profession - sure, he is very articulate in describing the big battles he would like to win against government/planning authorities - he loves that shit, big stuff. But what about the small little battles everyday, that we do have some hope of winning. Are those simply not worthy?

I have learned over the years to pick fights you are meant to fight, pick battles you can win. Basic common everyday sense. If the profession continues the way it is going, it will fight itself back into a corner. And there will be noone left to pick up the pieces.
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Postby sw101 » Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:43 pm

how could you describe a wealthy american executive as a typical forward thinking irish client? and why do you argue that this 1 million pound house deserved all this extra treatment when the architect clearly wasnt in a position to supply it. he surely neither promised or assured that it would be provided. clients problem.

stop being so negative. just go and build something you can be proud of and that adds a liitle bit to the lives of ordinary irish people. then you can call yourself an architect
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Postby garethace » Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:25 pm

Basically everything you have said now these past couple of weeks has been great. I have learned a few new slants, i must admit i lacked before. Namely the idea of an architect as a generalist and delegater. I am still trying to come to terms with that. Thankyou.
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Postby sw101 » Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:40 pm

not a problem. soon you'll enter the real world and become a useful individual who may one day make a difference. i hope i one day to see the name garethace scribbled all over logbooks everywhere, i hope they reference and revere you in the bolton street crit area you seem to loathe. i'll feel like i had something to do with all that, and consequently i'll want a cut of your wage
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Postby garethace » Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:01 pm

I treat this forum, a bit like how Movie Directors test a movie on a live audience to observe how they respond. Much the same way as an architect can bounce off a real client. I am the first one, to observe how people react to my opinions, and I learn a good deal more here at Archiseek, than just thinking/working completely in isolation. I do have to learn to accept however, that posters for one reason or another will simply avoid having to deal with certain issues. In other words, they are purposely 'choosing' the battle field on which to debate, which is just another part of the whole skill of debating. But improving/exercising the skill of discussion can only be a positive one for working as an architect, or an engineer, or most other jobs for that matter - but especially an architect. There again, i think that Bolton Street fell down a bit, you always were afraid that you might say something stupid, or offend the status quo. But in general, the response here at Archiseek, even if you haven't said anything earth-shattering, the comments have all been very, very valuble as feedback/response indeed.

I felt that opportunity was missing in Bolton Street sometimes - to test out your bad/good/indifferent ideas - the fear of being shot down, especially where computer graphics or anything too left of field was concerned. I had a very similar battle with them in the mid nineties to accept physical scale models as possible design generators. One member of staff quite honestly admitted, he couldn't build physical models himself, and hadn't a clue how to judge a concept from a model either. But nowadays, that attitude to physical scale models has transformed for the better. The debate going on over computer models - in both practice and in college is cronic currently, with architects saying one thing one year and contradicting themselves the second. I believe the computer model still requires alot more scrutiny, evaluation and stress-testing to prove itself valuable to the profession. There is noone i loathe more, than the guys who applaud computers, and hearld them as God-like tools - both them and the Information Technology have alot of growing up to do.

All I have been doing really at Archiseek is thinking about a set of criteria, the profession might in future develop to test the validity of computer technological methods.
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Postby garethace » Fri Sep 12, 2003 11:10 pm

The Bill Gates of Architectural Information Technology?

Let the Revolution begin!

WHO DO WE HAVE?
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