will sligo clip the wings of Dunlop and Murray

Postby PVC King » Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:04 pm

Makes for a clearer system. The problem here is that no-one plays by the rules. People in Scotland simply wouldn't applly for certain projects because you have a clearer picture of the likely outcome.


Possibly because the planning system has never been defined on a local level. The County Development plans have a multitude of worthy and often conflicting objectives.

While not dealing in any meaningful way with plot ratios or other indicators that would give you a clearer indication.


Where An Taisce is a statutory body here is to observe and comment on the planning process
it was granted this role in the Local Government (planning & Development) Act of 1963.

To get the context for An Taisce you should get a copy of Frnak McDonalds destruction of Dublin. It is also closer to the NTS than historic scotland.

The organisation still has relevance I feel, however I will concede that some within the organisation can be far too dogmatic at times.

It is an evolutionary world we live in subject to a few and everdiminishing number of regulations
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Postby alan d » Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:36 pm

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/property/2001/0913/prop11.htm

Frank has helped me in the past get things published in the Irish Times and
I have his book " The Construction of Dublin" in front of me right now. In fact I took it on holiday last year, in an attempt to understand how things were done in reland and a good read it was too. We invited him over to speak in Scotland a couple of years back.

Can't see the connection yet with regional. centres though but better understand the politics.
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Postby what? » Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:15 pm

nice article alan, i have also admired the centre for advanced studies, didnt know sam stephenson did it though. and the point about modernism going well with the clean lines of a georgian city was well said. i think we have an amazingly sophisticated group of young-ish architects from such a small population base in ireland and they could definitely hold their own against anything coming out of london. we dont have the strict minimalists or the flamboyant gesturing ego-maniacs, we have something in between, i think its a quite and knowlegable refinement.
anyway thats probably got nothing to do with this tread
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Postby alan d » Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:22 pm

Bloody well said and whether you think so now, Temple Bar has been very influential to everyone involved in urban regeneration, myself included.

As much as any of the buildings listed on the great Irish Buildings thread
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Postby ro_G » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:31 pm

out of interest, is Temple Bar admired internationally as a case study for regeneration?
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Postby what? » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:33 pm

ive seen it in a book giving world-class examples of urban regeneration schemes alongside potsdammer platz and the like.
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Postby alan d » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:43 pm

Well of course. ro_G

As an exampler of positive, small scale designer led regeneration. St against the big scale developer proposals. Also as a model to bring people back into city centres, to live and work and for recreation. Remember it replaced SOM'S transporation interchange, taking people out of Dublin

I know it's hard to believe it, when tripping over drunken Glaswegians over for a stag night courtesy of Ryanair .
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Postby phil » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:55 pm

What?, do you know the name of that book? Sounds like it would be interesting.
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Postby mike s » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:18 pm

alan could your client perhaps obtain funding from some conservation source to help with the project? seems silly for it to just end after so much time?
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Postby what? » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:40 pm

cant remember the name of the book read it a few years ago, its in bolton street library if your around that way. i have to say though, that when i was reading it (objectivley) temple bar stood out from them all as being by far the most sensitive regeneration of an area without resorting to pastiche or overprotection of old buildings of questionable worth.
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Postby alan d » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:36 pm

http://www.reflectingcity.com/0305.htm

Good info on Temple Bar attached.
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:35 am

Planning refusal for major Sligo development



An award-winning Scottish architect has likened his experience of the Irish planning permission to "wading through treacle" after his client was refused permission for a major development in Sligo, writes Frank McDonald, Environment Editor.

The planning refusal was issued last month after Sligo Borough Council decided on the casting vote of its mayor to list as a protected structure an early 19th century building that would have had to be demolished to make way for the scheme.

"It's a devastating blow which puts the whole project at risk", said the architect, Mr Alan Dunlop. "We feel terribly sorry for our client . . . and disappointed for the town because it looks as though it will now miss out on major investment and new jobs".

A local developer, Mr Louis Doherty, commissioned Gordon Murray and Alan Dunlop Architects to draw up plans for a mixed residential and retail scheme fronting onto Old Market Street, adjoining Sligo's imposing Victorian courthouse.

The scheme, designed in a contemporary style, was intended to replace a two-storey building from 1820, known as Teeling House, and the largely disused backland area to its rear. At the time, this building was not listed as a protected structure.

Last September, the borough council decided by six votes to five not to include the threatened Teeling House in its list of protected structures, but some members who favoured retaining it immediately attempted to reverse this decision.

The Sligo county manager, Mr Hubert Kearns, had recommended that the building should be listed because it was a high priority to retain historic buildings in a designated conservation area surrounding the recently-renovated courthouse.

Mr Murray said Teeling House was "in poor condition" and the architects saw no reason to retain it "simply because it's old".

He said the decision to list it came after a document, which neither the architects nor their client had seen before "despite an exhaustive search of the town's museums and planning archives", was read out detailing its importance to Sligo.

"As an outsider, I find the local politics very interesting. One councillor being played off against another, one party deliberately voting against another - on politics not issues", Mr Dunlop said. "How anything gets built is beyond me, honestly." But a spokesman for An Taisce welcomed the borough council's decision to refuse permission. "What was proposed was seriously over-scaled and would have been seriously detrimental to the wonderfully-restored courthouse".

He acknowledged that the architects had done some very good work in Glasgow and elsewhere, but their proposed development in Sligo was of a "huge urban scale" that would have been inappropriate to its setting on Old Market Street.

Mr Dunlop said the need to provide residents with light in confined spaces to the rear, as well as the use of high-quality materials meant that the margins are so tight that we cannot make it work without replacing Teeling House.

It is expected that the developer, Mr Doherty, will now exercise his right to appeal to An Bord Pleanála.


http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2004/0105/883471521HM2SLIGO.html
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Postby sw101 » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:35 pm

take it to 'em alan. an bord pleanala need excitable architects to rustle their feathers a bit. good luck with it
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Postby alan d » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:43 pm

Thank you sw101, sincerely.
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Postby Devin » Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:14 pm

Just looking at the images again, the proposed building assumes the same status as the monument (courthouse) rather than deferring. Has this been done sucessfully anywhere else?
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Postby FIN » Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:59 am

define "assumes the same status"... ?????
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Postby alan d » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:15 pm

Don't agree that our proposal is striving for the same status Devin.. prefer to think it compliments

I found it a bit strange ..... the idea that one building should somehow defer to another. It seems to belong to another age, perhaps when the courthouse itself was built in 1878, or the council Chambers at time when you tipped your cap perhaps to your betters and understood the social and political heirarchy.

Strange also Devin the term "monument"

The courthouse is a significant building, no doubt about it, the best exmple of high victorian gothic outside Dublin. That's why I've drawn it in detail and with as much sensitivity as I could mustre.
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Postby phil » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:28 pm

Maybe i am totally off track here, but this reminds me slightly of the extention to the Town Hall in Dun Laoghaire. I know that in the Sligo case it is a new building and not adjoined to the courthouse, but from those sketches which I saw it looked like the new building would compliment the older court house and in fact make it more prominant. In the Dun Laoghaire example the new extension works exellently on its own merit but also compliments the older building and highlights it.
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Postby FIN » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:39 pm

indeed but unfortunately there is no point telling the blind(an taisce). they see what they want to see.
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Postby Devin » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:27 pm

What I meant was the architectural balance between monument (the courthouse) and small scale grain (teeling house & adjoining 2 storey terraces). The Dublin Quays are a good example of this, where the spectacular 4 courts and custom house sit amongst the low key Georgian grain. Ok, the setting of the custom house has been engulfed by a lot of crap over time, but you can still get the effect around the 4 courts.

I think the proposed building for sligo is a cracker - were it that that every development site in ireland was subject to this level of architectural input. Just dont know if its right for beside the courthouse. But hey, this thread has been over all that already.

With regard to my original question, the extension to Dun Laoghaire town hall might be an example of what I'm talking about.
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Postby alan d » Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:00 pm

I take your point Devin, to a degree.

The two storey terraces are charming and were I an american tourist visiting the west coast they would be conducive to what I thought Sligo and other regional towns should be........ or a remider of why my relatives left in the first place.

Many still have stable doors at the front but I have visited many of the residents and none have horses.

The back areas where the horses used to graze are derelict and the rooms in the terraces incredibly small and poorly serviced. The small grain is very appealing, unless you are an owner trying to sell.

Time to move on..........I respectfully suggest
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Postby PVC King » Wed Jan 07, 2004 2:28 pm

Why Because the property values are more important than the urban grain?
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Postby LOB » Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:45 pm

Originally posted by alan d

Time to move on..........I respectfully suggest


In this case I totally agree
Good luck with the appeal Alan
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Postby trace » Thu Jan 08, 2004 8:29 pm

How historic preservation relates to architecture and to the development of cities, in the words of The New Yorker's architecture critic, Paul Goldberger (Jan/Feb 2004 issue of Preservation): http://www.nationaltrust.org/magazine/current/shortanswer.htm
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Postby alan d » Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:31 am

I like this article Trace and would be sympathetic to many of the comments it contained.

As an architect though I am absolutely against the whole process of listing because it starts off as a measure to protect buildings of architectural or historic significance and ends up as a means for a blanket coverage........cases for the removal of buildings and their replacement with new structures should be argued on their merits and the architect should be prepared to take this on, in my view. With the proviso that it should be replaced with something better.

Not every old building is Penn Station , some have outlived their usefulness as structures consequently in Glasgow many Victorian Buildings built as offices or warehouses or post offices are now empty shells which we can't remove. That's daft.

In contrast though we have just completed work on Glasgow's Central Station a grade A listed structure built in 1907, which is still the major station in the west of Scotland and in itself a brilliant structure. But significantly it works and I doubt if anyone could replace it with anything better.
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