Luas faces delay until 2005 - Offical

Postby Niall » Tue Sep 02, 2003 3:55 pm

Listen, let's not get away from the facts, it is seriously over budget and not on time. That is not the government's fault. The Light rail order was made in 1998/1999.. it is nearly 2004. The RPA were given the task of recruiting and supervising contractors and selecting an operator- not the government!

99% of people in Dublin want Luas to succeed. people are terribly frustrated with how the RPA and the conhtractors have organised it and the way they are going about it...

What has been happening since 1998? Who coordinated this mess???? The RPA!

People what happened before 1998 with the government was a mistake but please stop making excuses.
Niall
Member
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2001 1:00 am

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:27 pm

got a leaflet in my door last night from the RPA ( live on a luas line ) again stating that all construction work on both lines would be completed by Christmas 2003 ...
Peter Fitz
 

Postby JJ » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:12 pm

A couple of points need clarification I think.

The light rail orders were not completed until 2001. This was because of the odd decision by the Government to break the system into two separate lines and the rejection by the inquiry judge of the first proposals for Connolly ( which is why the ramp is being demolished as there was nowhere else left to go )

The Government in the form of the Dept of Transport selected the operator, not the RPA, although the RPA has to manage the contract with Connex.

The contractors were selected and the contracts signed by CIE even before the RPA as an organisation existed.

All roadworks in the city have to be agreed with the City Council in advance and the LUAS contractors are bound by any restrictions place by the council.

I have to say though that the RPA should be much more pro-active in terms of running the contract and informing the public. The web site is a joke. Gabriels updates ( whens the next one ? ) are a better indication of whats gong on.

JJ
JJ
Member
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Ireland

Postby Rory W » Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:37 pm

I was at the Luas presentation as part of the DTI report when it was pretty much a done deal in terms of the lines planning

The year 1990

Completion 1995 at the latest

The delay - procrastination on the part of the government.

For particular attention - Mary O'Rourke

The government can move fast when it wants to - see the Albert Reynolds/Larry Goodman affair. If the will to do it was there it would be done.
Rory W
Old Master
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Drogheda & Blackrock

Postby GrahamH » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:01 pm

Are more lines being planned right now?
If further expansion of Luas is happening should the trams etc not be ordered now?

Much of the critisism of Luas at the moment is about traffic problems because of road works - for goodness sake this was absolutely inevitable - the reporting in the media has been laughable - showing sensationalist shots of traffic down Harcourt St, Oh no - they've wrecked the city centre - look at all the gaping wounds in the roadways - this mess will never be cleaned up - when Luas is finished the traffic is always going to be like this - etc etc.

Wait till it's finished!
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Postby JJ » Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:20 am

My contact in the RPA says that the design of the extension from Sandyford to Cherrywood was completed nearly a year ago but has been held up because of the Dunloe Ewart problems. They are funding half the cost on the basis of planning gain at Cherrywood. Now that Liam Carroll is involved discussions have started again.

Also the design of the extension to Point Depot is under way as well as a line out to Finglas and Lucan.

The RPA have also been discussing additional mid sections for the shorter trams rather than additional trams for the moment. Alstom the supplier are in big trouble so its possible the next set of trams could be supplied by someone else.

Also hearing strong rumours about staffing difficulties and union issues with Connex.

Seems ltheres lots happening but as I said above the RPA are very closed about their activities.

JJ
JJ
Member
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Ireland

Postby Rory W » Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:46 am

If you also notice a lot of the stories are eminating from the Sunday Business Post - address 80 Harcourt Street
Rory W
Old Master
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Drogheda & Blackrock

Postby Andrew Duffy » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:03 am

The RPA have a nice new public foyer to their offices on Parkgate Street. It's right beside my apartment, so I think I'll drop in every evening on my way home from work and ask "is it finished yet? is it finished yet? is it...".
Andrew Duffy
Senior Member
 
Posts: 565
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby Niall » Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:59 pm

If the RPA sorted out their PR, which is a disaster, do they employ anyone??? Sorted out their website updates which are laughable, what's wrong with a bit more info and a few pics?

That would help............
Niall
Member
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2001 1:00 am

Postby garethace » Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:09 pm

An interesting study of the Washington Metropolitan area found this interesting results:

WASHINGTON (September 8, 2003) – Metropolitan areas with more compact growth, a wide mix of land uses, plentiful transportation options, and which were mostly developed prior to the use of the automobile are generally less expensive places to live, in terms of the combined costs for housing and transportation, according to an analysis of consumer expenditures by the Urban Land Institute (ULI).

The analysis, conducted by ULI Senior Resident Transportation Fellow Robert Dunphy, involved consumer expenses in 28 metropolitan areas during 2001, according to spending data released earlier this year by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Not surprisingly, housing accounted for one-third of spending by U.S. households in 2001, twice the amount spent in 1972, reflecting “higher homeownership and larger and lavish homes,” Dunphy said. However, transportation costs ranked a close second to housing, at 19 percent of the average household budget, more than food and clothing combined. The average household spent more than $7,600 annually on transportation, of which $7,200 was for buying and maintaining cars and trucks. In comparison, an average of $400 was spent on public transportation, which included expenditures for air fares.


THE FULL ARTICLE
garethace
 
Posts: 1579
Joined: Wed May 14, 2003 9:01 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby StephenC » Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:32 am

Power Cables threaten to strangle St Patrick's Festival

I think this story in the Indo this morning is hilarious. It amazing nobody thought about this when the line was being designed. Aparently dehooking the lines for the festival would be too much and there is no way the parade can be rerouted to miss O'Connell St. It will be interesting to find out what solutionis proposed.

I also took a walk along the city centre length of the Tallaght line. It looks very impressive when its finished...especially down near Collins Barracks. You can also see a number of stops almost complete (apart from furniture) at Collins and Chancery.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2483
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby garethace » Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:56 am

agreed yeah, i love the way it cuts through the bottom of Smithfield - really gives that part of town a completely different feel to what it used be like in the old days. Good observation.
garethace
 
Posts: 1579
Joined: Wed May 14, 2003 9:01 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:47 am

my feelings on the track through smithfield
http://www.p45blogs.net/dublin/archives/000366.html
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5418
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Postby Rory W » Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:09 pm

loved the comment from the other article in the indo about how luas would halt traffic on O'Connell street every two and a half minutes as it crosses the street.

That would be like having traffic lights on the street then...
Rory W
Old Master
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Drogheda & Blackrock

Postby notjim » Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:17 pm

JJ, where would a finglas/lucan line join the existing "network"?
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby GrahamH » Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:22 pm

Now the staple of the parade, that massive yellow sun that floats through the streets will have to go.
What a pity.
Interestingly, all the delaying and messing around about Luas not going overground between Stephen's Green and O' CllSt has at least saved - if thats the word - the parade along this part - College Green & Westmoreland etc.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Postby GrahamH » Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:24 pm

Primetime have a special report on the Luas tomorrow evening - Tuesday - at 9.30 on RTE 1
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Postby StephenC » Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:35 pm

I read your piece on Smithfield Paul. I went on a tour the other week with the DCC Area Manager around the HARP area. It was quite interesting, lots of first hand info on projects like the Markets etc. DCC seem to be hoping that the new DIT campus at Grangegorman will dramarically increase the 'footfall' on Smithfield and give it a much improved atmosphere. The new development on the left side of the square will include a bus park underground which will allow more tourist to visit as well. Its all very much in the future but when you listened to him you could appreciate how gradual the whole development of the area is and ust hw hard it has been to get the area developed. Interestingly, that staple of the Smithfield area - Bargintown - have planning permission in to redevelop their (very lucrative) site for apartments and retail. Hurry on down to Bargintown...
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2483
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:52 pm

Hardly worth waiting for I suspect. AFAIK they were responsible for developing some of the awful buildings at the bottom of the square.
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5418
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Postby StephenC » Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:55 pm

The DCC guys was full of praise for the council housing development just off Blackhall Place (??? or is it Queen St). Anyway its the garish illuminous socks group of buildings. Comments anyone: I though it looked pants.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2483
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby ewanduffy » Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:31 am

Originally posted by Graham Hickey
Primetime have a special report on the Luas tomorrow evening - Tuesday - at 9.30 on RTE 1

I saw this. Not much to it, other than Ireland's chief ticket collector (yes, that is Garret Fitzgerald's hobby) coming out with his usual nay saying about LUAS.

From a man who delivered nothing in terms of public transport and presided over a bankrupt economy, you think he would disappear quietly.

BTW, I have never voted for Fianna Fail. This is not a party political rant.
ewanduffy
Member
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:00 pm
Location: Celbridge

Postby shadow » Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:43 am

Just to be clear, Garret Fitzgerald inherited an already bankrupt economy from a Fianna Fail government which, if memory serves me, cancelled domestic rates leading to the downgrading of local democaracy in favour of centralised politics.

In truth we are all responsible for the previoous and current mess.
shadow
Member
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 1:00 am

Postby MB O'Maoileoin » Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:44 am

Personally, I think an underground metro would have been a better option from the start but there seems little point critising the Luas project at this late stage (in any case most of Line B is segregated anyway). However, what I don't understand is why having decided to go ahead with it the plan did not include a connection between Line A and Line B (which should have then run on to the airport) at this stage in the project.

One other point: why has nobody thought to include a station/s at UCD on the "dream" metro/luas map - thousands of people must travel there every day from all over the city for most of the year.
MB O'Maoileoin
Member
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:38 pm
Location: London

Postby GrahamH » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:39 pm

Garrett has for years been opposed to Luas, although I think he's the only person in this country who has ever come close to the idea of a 'statesman' I have to point out that a lot of his arguements over Luas have been proven incorrect or rather not taking into account other factors that render his points irrelevant.
There was a notable absence of his previous criticisms last night as a result.

I loved the bit where he spoke with an engineer at the Red Cow and asked how pedestrians were supposed to get to the station - to which the engineer replied 'well, over there'.
Garrett - "what you mean across the motorway?"
Engineer - "well mumble mumble................."
(Dissolve to black)

I thought I'd delve back a bit and follow tdevelopment of Luas from it's inception in 1990 - although it was mooted in the 80s.

1990 - The Dublin Transportation Initiative was formed to try & solve the city's transport problems - A light rail system is immediatly on the cards.

1992 - the DTI's interim report is published, light rail is the staple mode, and various lines are proposed.

1994 - Final report published - lines pretty much in their current form are decided upon.

1997 May - After 3 years of consultations with civic groups and 100s of bodies etc Min for Transport Alan Dukes puts up £100m for building Tallaght line and money for designing Ballymun line.

1997 July - Fianna Fail come into Govt with PDs and despite earnest protests from Dukes not to interfere - they unravel the whole process to find the feasability of going underground.
Luas team are furious after 3 yrs of work - FF promise a massive report will at last settle the underground issue once and for all - and spend £200,000 on a study by WS Atkins of the UK.

1998 April - 9 months later (delay later) report is published - it unequivically supports overground system - it will carry more passengers, will cost less, and underground would prob entail a public private partnership, and would take much longer to build.
Estimated cost overground £500m - roughly what CIE had come up with previously.

1998 May - 1 month later Mary Harney & Mary O' Rourke come under pressure form car lobby and various other anti-Luas groups that had formed, & despite promises of Atkins being the final final report that would settle the issue - they proceed to ignore the £200,000 study and devise their own scheme to go underground from Stephens Green to Broadstone, costing an extra £300m. Without - costing £400m.
As a result of more delays & planning ahead, EU funds of £114million for the project must be used elsewhere around the country.
CIE are left to pick up the pieces and start planning some sort of underground system.

1998 Nov - Public inquiry into Tallaght line is held in just over 20 days and findings published before end of year.

1999 March - after 3 further months, O' Rourke gives the go ahead at last for Tallaght (Line A)
It begins work in Feb of 2000, and is to be finished by Feb 2003.

1999 Nov - go ahead given for Line B, it is to start work in early 2000 and be finished by June of 2003.

1999 - At this stage planning is still going on for Line C to Connolly and 6 Ballymun routes are being considered and planned (still)
The cost of the project (I think the 3 lines we have now) is £671million which translates into the 700 and something million euro that Min Brennan speaks of today.
Also in 1999 test holes are bored in the city centre to accertainsoil types for underground- findings reveal theres a lot of rock down there - hence likelyto mean more money please.

At this stage however it is hoped that with the lines under construction at last - when they are finished - public and political perception will sway massively in favour over overground link from Green to North, and hence no underground will be needed - hence little work to date has been carried out on the underground option.

1999 December - Public inquiry is carried out for Line C and judge rules in favour of residents of IFSC that the line must stop at Store St until an alternative link to Connolly is found - hence bye bye ramp later on.

2001 - Finsihing projections of project are moved back to Christmas of 2003.

2002 - Finishing projections are moved back again to June 2004

2003- Finishing projection for one line (I think Tallaght) is moved to July/August 2004.

2003 16thSept - Red Cow officially becomes the laughing stock of Europe.
Even Marian Finucane picks up on the stilts/Simpsons mono-rail similarities.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Postby GrahamH » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:44 pm

Some snappy facts:

The trams will be 3.27 metres (11 feet) high.

The electricity supply overhead will operate at 750V DC.

Each tram is capable of up to 70kmph.

Lines A & C will use 30 metre trams, while B will use 40 metre.

Each 30metre will hold up to 235 people, with only 60 of them seated.

235 people is the equivilant to 168 cars apparently.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4580
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland