reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

[Luzarches]

Although, if you look at the O'Neill scheme with the cathedra placed diagonally and against the crossing pier, he will have his back to all those people in the transept facing the altar. Maybe they should divide the seating into 'Full', 'Conscious' and 'Active' Participation categories?

[Gianlorenzo]

Funny you should say that, Luxarches. Prof. O'Neill considers the seats that are within 15m of the altar the "precious" seat. This was how he described them to the Oral Hearing. So now you know. Get your measuring tape out - check the distance you are from the altar and you will know if you are in the "precious" category or not.

[Luzarches]

For all the jesting, there is here an implied 'seniority' relating to those nearest the altar as distinct from the proper hierarchy of clergy and laity defined by the existing architecture. If this proper distinction is muddied then one arrives at a point where things like altar rails are offensive and a 'fuedal' barrier. At present there is an equality in the faithful gathered in the nave outside the sanctuary, there is no sense in which sitting at the front is better qualitatively than half way down or at the back. The rails encourage people of all sorts rub shoulders in a posture of humility.

Anyway, I thought Catholics fought for the seats at the back, not he front.

[GrahamH]

Forget seats - the entrance lobby is the hottest place in town on Sunday morning.
Preferably near the 1930s raditator that makes strange gurgling sounds. Or maybe that's all the stomachs from the night before.

[Gianlorenzo]

The reality is that people will naturally go to the same seats day in day out, or week in week out. One can tell who is around immediately upon entering ones local church. Even visitors, if they attend daily Mass, will inevitably go to the same section of the church everytime. Regarding Cobh Cathedral, the back section of the central nave seats are the ones that fill up first, with a few people choosing to take seats nearer the front. Should the proposed re-ordering take place, this situation will not change, and people will move correspondingly back, until they find the place where they are most comfortable.
This, of course, make Prof.O'Neill assumption that everyone is going to "gather around the altar" in his proposed confirugation, total nonesense. One of the characteristics of the team proposing the changes to Cobh Cathedral is their total divorce from reality. If, once, they had taken the time to actually talk to the people they might have learned a great deal of what actually happens in the church. Unfortunatley their attitiude is that they can impose this on the people and that eventually they will come around. No wonder there is such anger and resentment among the parishioners in Cobh.

[sangallo]

A little question: with all of the emphasis on visibility to ensure greater participation, what is to be said about the blind person? Is he (or she) to be left out, simply because he can't see what's going on?

[Gianlorenzo]

Originally Posted by sangallo

A little question: with all of the emphasis on visibility to ensure greater participation, what is to be said about the blind person? Is he (or she) to be left out, simply because he can't see what's going on?

Sangallo, from the limited justification produced in Midleton in support of the proposed re-ordering, one would think that anyone who is blind, or even partially sighted, is completely unable to take 'active participation' in the Mass. Taking that idea to its end, it would appear that they are saying that people with sight disability have never actually taken part in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Interestingly, I remember it being said, when I was young, that one heard Mass, and that the priest said Mass.

Taken along with some of the other bizarre statements made by the Applicants during the recent Oral Hearing,one can only come to the conclusion that they no idea of what their own Church says on these matters and have total contempt for the ordinary parishioners, whose instincts are more inline with true Church teaching then they are.

[Praxiteles]

This interesting and well informed piece came to hand from The Phoenix, 10 March 2006. Obviously, there was a chief among the legal eagles taking notes:

[Luzarches]

I found this on the subject of kneeling a book, Sacred Signs, by Romano Guardini, a leading contributor to the thought of the Liturgical Movement. It serves as a timeles rebuke to those who would covertly or overtly attempt to reduce the frequency of this gesture in the liturgy:

KNEELING

WHEN a man feels proud of himself, he stands erect, draws himself
to his full height, throws back his head and shoulders and says
with every part of his body, I am bigger and more important than
you. But when he is humble he feels his littleness, and lowers
his head and shrinks into himself. He abases himself. And the
greater the presence in which he stands the more deeply he abases
himself; the smaller he becomes in his own eyes.

But when does our littleness so come home to us as when we stand
in God's presence? He is the great God, who is today and
yesterday, whose years are hundreds and thousands, who fills the
place where we are, the city, the wide world, the measureless
space of the starry sky, in whose eyes the universe is less than
a particle of dust, all-holy, all-pure, all-righteous, infinitely
high. He is so great, I so small, so small that beside him I seem
hardly to exist, so wanting am I in worth and substance. One has
no need to be told that God's presence is not the place in which
to stand on one's dignity. To appear less presumptuous, to be as
little and low as we feel, we sink to our knees and thus
sacrifice half our height; and to satisfy our hearts still
further we bow down our heads, and our diminished stature speaks
to God and says, Thou art the great God; I am nothing.

Therefore let not the bending of our knees be a hurried gesture,
an empty form. Put meaning into it. To kneel, in the soul's
intention, is to bow down before God in deepest reverence.

On entering a church, or in passing before the altar, kneel down
all the way without haste or hurry, putting your heart into what
you do, and let your whole attitude say, Thou art the great God.
It is an act of humility, an act of truth, and everytime you
kneel it will do your soul good.

[Praxiteles]

St. Paul's Cathedral, Calcutta (1847)

A.N. Didron in his Annales Archéologiques mentions this church as an example of the spread of the Gothic style thoughout the British Empire.


St. Paul's Cathedral Church
This Catholic Church is situated on the south east of Maidan beside Rabindra Sadan. This was the first 'Episcopal Cathedral Church' in an oriental country.Bishop Wilson patronized the construction of this church which was designed after Indo-Gothic pattern at a cost of Rs. 5 lakhs. The foundation stone was laid in 1839. Major Forbes of the Bengal Engineers' Association made the blueprint. It was completed in 1847.

[Praxiteles]

The Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception, Albany, New York


Originally constructed in 1848-52 to the design of Patrick Keeley, the cathedral was extended to the west in 1891.

A.N. Didron mentions this church in his Annales Archéologiques for 1853: "la Cathédrale d'Albany, consacrée en novembre 1852, est un très-bel édifice gothique en pierre; elle est située dans une position qui domine le fleuve Hudson. Les vitraux ont été donnés par les différentes paroisses du diocèse, chaque paroisse a fait don d'une fenetre; l'autel en marbre blanc a été sculpté à Paris, où nous l'avons vu et remarqué; c'est dans l'atelier de notre ami M. Froget qu'on l'a exécuté".

[Praxiteles]

Cathedral of St. John the Evangelist, Cleveland, Ohio

Cleveland’s first bishop, Amadeus Rappe, built the Cathedral of St John. Work was begun in 1848 with Patrick Charles Keeley as the architect. Keeley would become one of the premier church architects of the 19th century and the Cathedral of Saint John the Evangelist would be one of his first Cathedral designs. The cornerstone was laid on October 22, 1848. Additional property was purchased and the first Mass was held in the temporary chapel of the Nativity on Christmas Day of 1848. During the week it housed a school. The Cathedral, built in what was called a French or ornamental Gothic style, was completed in 1852. The extreme poverty of the Diocese forced Bishop Rappe to go on fund-raising trips to France, New York City, and other parts of Ohio to help finance its completion.


A. N. Didron mentions this cathedral in his Annales Archeologiques and provides some interesti g information about the retable of the High ALtar: "La cathédrale de Cleveland, sur les bords du lac Erié, est en briques, mais l'autel et son rtable gothique, en chene, ont été sculptés dans la ville de Saint-Pol-de- Léon, en Bretagne, par Saint-Yves, un simple menuisier de campagne; il est vrai que M. Pol de Courcy guidait la main, pour ainsi dire, du respectable Saint-Yves".

This is what the original altar looked like:



The Lady Chapel





The Cathedral as originally built and before reconstruction in 1944-1946




Unfortunately, the interior has been completely devastated. Fortunately, the retable survives but it is difficult to say what happened tot he original High Altar.

[Praxiteles]

The Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception, Port of Spain, Trinidad

[Praxiteles]

The St. Kiklaus Kirche in Hamburg built 1845-1874 by G. Scott

Didron in his Annales Archéologiques for 1855 credits G. Scott for having introduced Pugin's true principles into germany by the construction of the Nicholauskirche in Hamburg for the Evangelical Lutherans. It was the largest church in the city of Hamburg until it was bombed in July 1943.

[Praxiteles]

St. George's Chentenham, 1854 by Charles Hansom

The plans for this church were much admired by A.N. Didron at the Great Exhibition.

ST. GREGORY'S CHURCH was built in the decorated style and begun in the spring of 1854 to replace a simple chapel which had been erected, on the site of the present tower in 1809 by the first Rector, Father Augustine Birdsall O.S.B. The chancel was opened for worship in May 1857. The tower and spire were begun but not completed until 1876, when the present nave, which connected the two existing parts of the building, was built. The church was consecrated in 1877.

The Church was designed by the famous architect, Charles Hansom. It contains many beautiful stained glass windows, crafted by the John Hardman Studios of Warley, Worcestershire, six of which are original, the others dating from 1857 - 1900. There are many fine stone carvings including the reredos behind the High Altar, the Pulpit front, altar fronts and a magnificent set of Stations of the Cross around the walls.

[Praxiteles]

Joseph Aloysius Hansom (Brother of Charles Hansom)


Joseph Aloysius Hansom
Born: 26-Oct-1803
Birthplace: York, North Yorkshire, England
Died: 29-Jun-1882
Location of death: London, England
Cause of death: unspecified


Gender: Male
Religion: Roman Catholic
Ethnicity: White
Occupation: Architect, Inventor

Nationality: England
Executive summary: Invented the Hansom Cab

English architect and inventor, born in York on the 26th of October 1803. Showing an aptitude for designing and construction, he was taken from his father's joinery shop and apprenticed to an architect in York, and, by 1831, his designs for the Birmingham town hall were accepted and followed -- to his financial undoing, as he had become bond for the builders. In 1834 he registered the design of a "Patent Safety Cab", and subsequently sold the patent to a company for £10,000, which, however, owing to the company's financial difficulties, was never paid. The hansom cab as improved by subsequent alterations, nevertheless, took and held the fancy of the public. There was no back seat for the driver in the original design, and there is little beside the suspended axle and large wheels in the modern hansom to recall the early ones. In 1834 Hansom founded the Builder newspaper, but was compelled to retire from this enterprise owing to insufficient capital. Between 1854 and 1879 he devoted himself to architecture, designing and erecting a great number of important buildings, private and public, including churches, schools and convents for the Roman Catholic church to which he belonged. Buildings from his designs are scattered all over the United Kingdom, and were even erected in Australia and South America. He died in London on the 29th of June 1882.

Wife: Hannah Glover (m. 1825)

[Praxiteles]

Charles Francis Hansom

HANSOM, Charles Francis (1817-88), of Coventry

Steam Mill, 1839-41
[Other work included Holy Sacrament RC church, Coventry, 1844; RC church at Studley, Warwicks, 1850; RC church and presbytery at Coughton, Warwicks, 1851-53]

Holy Cross Church, Kenmare, Co. Kerry

[Praxiteles]

The Cathedral of the Sacred Heart in Canton City, China





The Catholic cathedral in Canton was built between 1860 to 1890. This neo-Gothic granite structure designed by a French architect is an amazing feat of workmanship by Chinese craftsmen with little knowledge of this type of construction. These workers had also to bear the brunt of the local population's displeasure. Indeed, far from bringing Western missionaries and the people of Canton to some understanding and respect for each other, the building deepened the mistrust and became the focus of bitter disputes and clashes.
The uncompromising attitude and political maneuvering of Bishop Guillemin in the pursuit of his dream of a magnificent Gothic cathedral did nothing to alleviate Chinese suspicion of missionaries' collusion with Western expansionist plans. He repeatedly disregarded local fengshu i and used French political and military might to his advantage in claiming a site for his new church. His pick was as much a political as a religious statement. Indeed, the location he set sight upon was the grounds of the governor-general palace destroyed in December 1857 by Anglo-French forces. In 1879, the bishop's obsession with church constructions in his vicariate was to an extent responsible for his recall to Europe by Rome. Guillemin's immediate successors were unable to defuse the population's resentment against missionaries, the converts, and the cathedral.
On the Chinese side, the governor and governor-general vacillated between orders from Beijing to accommodate missionaries and demands from the local gentry for punitive actions against these same foreigners. This anti-foreign local elite played a crucial role in venting the population anger against the cathedral as the most obvious and prominent symbol of foreign impingement in the city. In 1880, an angry mob threatened the unfinished building and destroyed Christian housing. The onset of the conflict with France over Annam further increased the tension and led to a widespread persecution of Christians in the province. To prevent another riot in Canton, the governor-general ordered missionaries to leave and confiscated the property of the cathedral. The situation did not quiet down until the end of the Sino-French war in June 1885.
In today Canton, missionaries are gone, anti-foreignism is at an all-time low, and Catholicism is striving. The resentment against the cathedral, known by the population as the Stone House ( shishi ), has disappeared. In a strange twist of history, the present provincial government has declared the building a valued cultural monument. At long last, instead of being a divisive symbol in the city skyline, the Canton cathedral has become a peaceful testimony of a common heritage proudly treasured by East and West.

[Gianlorenzo]

Sacred Heart Cathedral Guangzhou City, Guangdong China is described as the largest Gothic Church in China.
The cathedral is also known as "Shi Shi" (Stone-Chamber) because that all its walls and poles are made of granite.
Stone House (Roman Catholic Church), located on Yide Road, was actually the office of the Guangdong and Guangxi provinces during the late Qing Dynasty. Originally named the Sacred Heart of Jesus Church, it was built entirely of granite, hence its name, the Stone House. This, the largest Catholic church in China, is well known in the Far East and is still a religious centre for Guangzhou's Roman Catholics. It was built between 1863-1888 by the French Architect Guillemin.
Sacred Heart Catholic Church (Shishi Jiaotang) is now a Catholic Patriotic Association (CPA) church, with no contact being allowed outside of China. The church's construction was begun in the 1860's and completed in 1888. It somehow survived the Cultural Revolution. It is located on Yide Lu in Central Guangzhou. It is a Gothic-style cathedral with a 190 foot (or so) tower. It's large copper bell was shipped in from France.

[Praxiteles]

St. Ignatius' Cathedral, Shanghai, China

Built in 1906

[Praxiteles]

The Catedral of Peking, China

[Praxiteles]

The Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Changsha, Hunan Province

(following an attack by the commies in 1930)

[Praxiteles]

The Cathedral in Mukden, China

[Praxiteles]

The Cathedral in Jinan

German built

[LeoWong]

Originally Posted by Praxiteles

The Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception, Albany, New York

My church, also threatened with reordering, and nothing to protect it but lack of funds.

Leo Wong
http://www.MurphyWong.net