Irish say no to PVC windows

[PVC King]

That door must be the most de-valuing act I've ever seen the occupier saved 500 and cost themeselves 50,000.

Those images are too depressing to comment on

[Maria]

Will get quotes over the next week or so and let you know how I get on. Since reading this thread I now look up at every building and see the white plastic! I honestly didn't notice how common the ugly pvc windows had got. The North Circular Road is awash with dodgy windows!

Thanks again for the tips and comments I'll let you know how I get on and maybe post a picture of the completed job (in possibly 5 yrs time depending on cost) and show up my neighbours for the pvc vandals that they are!

Cheers
Maria

[Andrew Duffy]

My apologies if this has been linked to before:

http://www.westmeathcoco.ie/services...ashWindows.asp

[GrahamH]

A very good page Andrew thanks, though a bit more balance would be welcome in favour of PVC dare I say - accuracy is everything with such comparisons.
There is no doubting the low-maintenance appeal of the product - this is at the end of the day what the vast majority of its market wants it for.

The site makes a very good point when stating 'the average house changes hands every 7-10 years' - at present this is why the negative aspects of PVC are remaining hidden for the moment, simply because very few people have yet to live in a house long enough to experience the plastic's twilight years!
You move into a shiny new first-time development with new PVCs, then move on to a second hand house that's just 'had the windows done', and third time round move to a house with 70s timber or something that needs replacing and so more new PVC goes in. The nasty hidden side of the product will only hit home in 10/20 years time.


Some of the truly astounding misinformation that's on the internet here from a page entitled:

"What are the advantages of Vinyl Windows?"

"One of the well-known advantages of vinyl windows is their superb degree of insulation. When compared with aluminum window frames, vinyl keeps in heat during winter but seals your rooms from heat during summer."
(Fails to mention timber is equally effective)

"Even if you spend money to replace your existing windows with vinyl, you can likely make up this cost in energy bills in a few years. When paired with double-paned glass, the costs could be significant. The windows are even recyclable for those who are concerned about the environmental impact of construction waste."
(Oh please - and who exactly recycles these yokes? The majority go straight to landfill)

(I love this one below)
"They are inexpensive to manufacture and install, since they fit into the existing spaces for your windows without changing your walls." (!!!)
(But of course - you have to demolish half your house to install timber )

(And this)
"You can choose how many panes your windows have, how they open, the width of the sill or trim, and their locking mechanism."
(All impossible with other products I'm sure)

(This below is just unbelievable)
"Vinyl windows resist dirt, stains, mold, scratches, and dents. The exterior casing won't fade or wear under ultraviolet sunlight. This means vinyl windows will last far longer than aluminum or wood."
(Very simply patently untrue)


Good luck with your windows Maria

[PVC King]

Originally Posted by Graham Hickey

"What are the advantages of Vinyl Windows?"

That description is almost as good as Dick Roche's 'Heat treatment' description of incineration which vinyl is unfortunately not suited to.

That is an excellent link

[Andrew Duffy]

Here's another good document:

http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/doeipub.n...LE/windows.pdf

[GrahamH]

Indeed, very comprehensive - ought to be sitting on the counter of every PVC supplier! By law

Makes a very good point via diagram about how many modern frames, and not just PVC, can wreck the balance of windows by the opening part being larger and bulkier than the fixed parts:



This is by far one of the greatest drawbacks of PVC, softwood windows from the 60s & 70s, and to a lesser extent aluminium.
It also goes to show the level of effort that once went into window construction to ensure the opening parts were concealed - esp evident in Edwardian casements similar to those those above.


Some pics here of surviving sashes - a delightful terrace of buildings in the village of Durrus, or rather these buildings are the village of Durrus




Very unusual for windows to survive in shop/supermarket buildings due to Super Valu Syndrome, so great to see them here.
Just a pity the signage etc could not be more sensitive:




And a wonderful dormer in Kinsale, with curved sashes no less. What a priceless feature!



Can you imagine anything remotely near the same level of attention to detail being paid today, especially in such a secondary location?

[PVC King]

Probably not although the cost of such detailed work in Ireland is prohibitive to all but a few domestic projects, that is why it is such a pity to see special windows replaced or any windows replaced on a building with special windows, once in the UK I spotted a magnificent set of windows not unlike those on Tailor's Hall on the front of an otherwise quite plain Queen Anne period building, to my horror someone had replaced the less impressive side gable windows with PVc. To make matters worse the building was in an old colliary town on quite an elevated site from which the PVc proportions were evident from 100m. On closer examination it was possible to see deposits of run off from the cleaning had accumulated in the mitred joints and while the PVc was quite white the joints were dark grey and very noticeable. This can be another potential problem that a lick of paint would solve on timber windows but with PVc there is no solution.

[Devin]

Originally Posted by Graham Hickey (on 'Westmoreland / D'Olier Streets')

Graham, since you took/posted the first photo in February the top floor of Cara Travel has been PVC’d!! Can you believe it?? The sashes were the last originals in the façade as well. What a mess the building is in now: the fine Victorian oriel on the 1st floor, PVCs on the 2nd & 3rd (which are possibly imitations of timber casements fitted at the same time as the oriel), and now mock-Georgian PVCs on the top floor! The ground floor signage is fairly dire as well.

I’m making a complaint about this latest PVCing to Planning Enforcement; - the building is a Prot. Struc. and is also in an ACA. Graham, if you don’t mind I’ll use your February photo in the complaint as evidence.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Andrew, thanks for linking that Westmeath page. Didn't realise stuff like that exist on local authority websites!

[GrahamH]

That's unbelieveable!
On D'Olier St!
In 2005!
On a Wide Streets Commisssion streetscape!?!

The audacity of the owner or tenant, and the cheek of the PVC company who one can be guaranteed knew exactly what they were at!

On closer inspection you can see why they did it - the lower sash on the right was as good as detached from the frame:



Pity the image couldn't be better - was taken on a banjaxed 1m camera.
Yes the image was taken on the 1st or 2nd (probably 2nd) of February 2005 - if you need anything else I'll be happy to oblige.

This is a practice that still seems to be commonplace - the insertion of PVCs into the uppermost floors of Georgians where they supposedly won't be seen - there's even quite a few on Merrion Square that seem comparitively recent!

It's the loss of original fabric that gets me - you'd think original stock in the city centre would be immune from this sort of thing in this day and age

[cobalt]

Great thread - really informative.

I've just bought a property with sash windows which are in pretty poor shape. (2 over 2, with a slightly arched top.) I'd like to get them restored/conserved as well as possible. At the same time, they obviously need to be burglar proof, and ideally as energy-efficient as possible (at the moment, most of them are stuck open, and held together with masking tape!), while fitting in with conservation practice.

Would it be the consensus that double glazing just can't be done well enough (narrow enough gap) to be suitable for old sash windows?
What about the Ventrolla system?
Or are there any other suitable techniques to be considered?

Also, can anyone recommend a joiner to do the restoration? I've looked up the building skills register on the Irish Georgian Society's website, and there are several joiners listed for Dublin (below). Has anyone worked with any of them or can you recommend one?

Thanks for all advice.

Joiners
Mr. John Bolger *
W. & J. BOLGER (Conservation) Ltd.
18 Ardee Street Dublin 8. 01 4530377. Fax 01 4540005.

Mr. Jonathan Guy Breen
J.G.B. Carpentry
20 Avoca Avenue, Blackrock, Co. Dublin. 01 2875858. 086 8697433. jgbcarpentry@msn.com

Mr. Declan Connaughton
Confor Joinery
rere 5 Williams Park Rathmines Dublin 6. 01 4964396. 088 2739196. Fax 01 4967286

Mr. Eric Conroy*
The Wooden Window Company
142, Alpine Heights Clondalkin Dublin 24. 01 4570656/8728622. 087 440229

Mr. Karl Crowe*
Advance Joinery Services Ltd.
8A Henrietta Lane Dublin 1. 01 8722026. Fax 01 8722110. advancejoinery@oceanfree.net

Mr. Ruary Kavanagh
Kavanagh Carpentry/Joinery
16, Dargle Valley Marley Grange Rathfarnham Dublin 16. 01 - 4935 140

Mr. Philip Kennedy*
Unit 4., K.C.R. Industrial Estate, Ravensdale park Kimmage Dublin 12. 087 6816900. philipkennedy@eircom.net

Mr. Paul King*
142, Alpine Heights Clondalkin Dublin 22. 01 4570656

Mr. Paul Lawrence*
No. 2 May Cottages, (off Nelson Street), Dublin 7. 087 2458303. woodenwork@hotmail.com

Mr. John Malone
911 Sarto Lawn, Sutton Co. Dublin. 085 7291939

Mr. Joe McNally*
Joe McNally Joinery Ltd.
Walshestown Lusk Co. Dublin. 01 8433022/259. Fax 01 8433367. jmacnallyjoinery@eircom.net

Mr. Joseph Moore
The Original Box Sash Window Company www.boxsash.com
139 Mount Merrion Avenue Blackrock Co. Dublin. 01 2888670. Fax 01 2836943. admin@boxsash.com

Mr. Dermot O'Rourke*
D.B.O.R. Ltd.
Unit 38a Baldoyle Industrial Estate Baldoyle Dublin 13. 01 8393274. Fax 01 8323466

Mr. Kevin Smith*
7 Manor Road Palmerstown Dublin 20. 01 6260538. Fax 01 6260538. 087 2431888

[Devin]

I know that Paul Lawrence and Karl Crowe are reputable. In terms of the whole list, I imagine that, by virtue of being listed in a register of conservation practicioners, there won't be many chancers there.

Bolgers fit the Ventrolla system; strips of draught/noise proofing inserted between the sash and its case - It has a good name.

Re: Double glazed sashes. I've seen it done quite well and I've seen it done very badly. But it always tends to look a bit 'clunky'.

[cobalt]

Thanks Devin.
Can you name any examples where it's been done well, or better still, the practitioners that did it?
I don't want it to look 'clunky', but since the windows are just 2 big panes over 2 rather than lots of little panes, it should have less tendency that way,,,, what do you think?
Will also follow up Bolgers for Ventrolla.

[anto]

get some heavy curtains!!!

[GrahamH]

Yes one-over-ones can be made very well with double-glazed panes, though the windows I've seen could have been reproductions. The dividing metal strip between the panes does tend to stand out a bit - though by no means in a major way.
Monty here before I think said this strip is unnecessary....

Would you not want to conserve the original glass cobalt? Frankly heavy curtains can be as good a solution as any in some cases, not least south facing rooms!
If you don't have individual room thermostat-controlled heating, there'll be no benefits whatever in the energy consevation department if you have your heating going regardless of the room's temperature as most people do.
So having double-glazing saves you no energy at all if you still keep the heating going for the same amount of time.

Of course that's not a reason to leave things as is. Indeed I'd like to know too what is recommended by experts for energy conservation with older windows - aside from the clumsy internal secondary glazing option...

[cobalt]

Originally Posted by Graham Hickey

Would you not want to conserve the original glass cobalt?

Yes I would, if that's what it is, and it's possible. But many of the panes are cracked or broken. The house has been horribly neglected. I'm not sure whether some of the intact panes are original... they look very uniform (to my untutored eye, and through all the dirt and masking tape!). If I got somebody like Bolger's out, would they be able to tell me what's original glass & what's not? Or is there any easy way of telling?

Don't worry - heavy curtains are on the way as an initial measure! But I won't be sitting in a darkened room like Miss Havisham during the day! And unfortunately I've no south facing windows - house is East (front) - West (back).

As regards individually thermostat controlled rooms, that would be ideal, and a long term plan. But my budget won't stretch that far at the moment. One step at a time...

[Devin]

WINDOW REPLACEMENT - SOMETIMES THINGS JUST GO FROM BAD TO WORSE:




Nos. 46 and 47 Harrington Street in 2003, both with '70s-type aluminium windows.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
Both of these buildings are Protected Structures. A planning application was lodged in '03 for No. 46 (Ref. 2867/03) for various changes including reinstatement of sash windows. Good. Except the new windows are clumsy double-glazed copies of Georgian sashes (see below). Bad quality copies of sash windows really annoy me, because, at least if there are clearly innapropriate windows in a building, there is a impetus to replace them, but bad sashes are not likely to be with replaced with 'historically correct' ones easily, are they?

Then, in summer of last year, a load of work was carried out on No. 47 without planning permission, including the replacement of the aluminium windows with PVC Georgian windows. They must have known it was a good time to do unauthorised work, because I made a complaint at the time, but the enforcement officer who normally deals with the area was away and there was nobody else available to make an inspection! And a year later, the PVC is still there...

The unauthorised work also included a quite well-executed rusticated blockwork effect in render on the ground floor, to match the building next door. But why would you go and do that and then put plastic Georgian windows in the building?





Nos. 46 and 47 Harrington Street in 2005, with bad quality sash windows to 46, and PVC Georgian windows to 47.





General view (the two buildings are semi-obscured behind the tree on the left).





Look at these awful glazing bars - they bear no resemblance to a Georgian glazing bar - putty on the outside; slender moulding on the inside (Cobalt, although your windows are Victorian, this in the kind of thing to watch out for if you are having new windows made - be sure whoever is making them makes an accurate copy of the existing ones, if they are too far gone). And the common mistake of using an ogee (Victorian) sash horn on a Georgian window.

[GrahamH]

Indeed - though worse I think is the chunky modern mouldings, especially if they stand proud of the glazing bar itself as in this case.

I can vouch for how horrible those PVCs look in number 47 having looked on in horror seeing them for the first time a few months ago not having been in the area for a while. What made it so bad until right now was that it wasn't clear if they replaced original sashes as I couldn't remember! I've been searching for an older photo since!
So at least your pictures Devin are something of a 'relief', though clearly not in relation to the clumsy repros, nor the PVCs that have gone in, regardless of what was there before.

Glad to hear an official complaint has been made.

Just on the idea of the reinsertion of sashes in the No 47 yellow house, even if done correctly which design would you go for? Given the pane formation of the aluminiums, it is highly likely this house had two-over-twos installed in the early 1860s. So which would you put back in upon replacement: c1820s Georgians, or Victorian two-over-twos?

[Devin]

The '03 photos are from the planning file mentioned above (being a prescribed body has its perks!).

Good to know somebody else is noticing these things (I'm not the psychopath I thought I was!!!).

It wouldn't bother me greatly whether it was 2-over-2s or another pane-pattern that was reinserted in No. 47, as the terrace has no great unity any more; - the existing 'proper' windows and the ground floor treatments of the buildings vary. But I wouldn't complain if accurate copies of the original 6-over-6s were put in, which survive next door at 48 and also in Brady's Pharmacy on the corner (but with glazing bars removed).

[GrahamH]

How can you tell a window has only had its glazing bars removed? I've always just gone on the lack of horns on what are otherwise modern Victorian sheet windows. Is there any other way of knowing - unusually slender sash frames holding sheet windows can give a clue at times...

[Devin]

Yeah, that's it - you just get to know the general appearance of them (after lookin' at so many feckin windows!). Another way of telling is if you're inside the building, you can usually see the scars of where the glazing bars were removed (filled with the Victorian eqivalent of polyfilla!), or you might be able to see from the outside if it's a ground floor window.
The light is crap in these photos (below) of the 1st floor windows of No. 49 (left) and Brady's on the corner (right, slightly blurry), but you can see that it's the same window with the glazing bars removed on the right.
Only removing the glazing bars to get the new larger panes of glass rather than replacing the whole window was a very 'make and do' thing to do, wasn't it?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's another example of bad Georgian sash window replacement; I was passing Windsor Terrace on the Grand Canal a while ago and took a picture of this beautiful early 19th century sash window with old glass rippling in the light (top). Lo and behold, next time I passed the old windows had been replaced with these copies (above) making all the usual mistakes: crude fat glazing bars, pieces of wood used to hold the glass in instead of putty (which you can see are coming off at the bottom of the top sash), and non-Georgian ogee sash horns.
So you have the double whammy of loss of irreplaceable original fabric, and bad quality replacement .

The building is on the corner on the right, below.

[Devin]

This is a small courtyard housing scheme off Marrowbone Lane, Dublin 8 (above & below). It appears to be architect-designed and built in the mid or late '90s. The houses had painted timber windows and doors originally, with a circular window in the door. But most of them have now been replaced in PVC. You can see the last one or two remaining examples in the pictures.

Should there be any planning control in situations like these over window and door replacement?

[ctesiphon]

At the risk of inviting ill-informed opinion from the anti-conservation brigade, I think there's an argument for 'protecting' new builds, whether in the form of a 'closure' rule whereby no changes can be made for, say, 10 or 20 years, or in the form of providing a selection of options (designed by the original architect) from which owners can choose their replacements. In the latter case, personalisation - an critical right for the image-conscious society in which we live, where many now see their exteriors as reflective of their interiors (both architecturally and personally- jeez, I'm sounding awfully like Richard Sennett now!) - would be facilitated within design parameters, while an element of overall design cohesion would be retained.
I've always had a hard time understanding why people buy houses they don't like and then spend big sums remaking them in their own image, even when choice was more of a feature than it now is in today's 'wherever I can afford' culture. Is it location and, by extension, status? The price of former local authority houses in Dalkey would tell you as much, as would the existence of Dublin 6W, as would the recent argument about the apartments in Swords/Malahide. But I digress...
Ultimately, this argument comes down to a) aesthetics, as there is no environmental reason on earth why someone would use pvc over timber, and b) a discussion on where we draw the line between the right of an owner to private property and the right of the general public to an inoffensive public realm (i.e. the duty of an owner towards their neighbours). But this is Ireland, and me feinism will usually win the day.

[GrahamH]

Indeed. It is so frustrating to see this happen in too many places. In the Sunday Times recently there was a letter published with someone looking for advice on the purpose of a 99 year lease a developer was utilising as part of the sale of houses in his estate - I was bowled over that any developer in Ireland even considered using such a device anymore!

It's a tool that really ought to be used as standard; too often developers are just throwing up estates, flogging the houses for a quick buck and legging it. To hell with how the place will look in 10 or 20 years time - windows, doors, boundary walls, gate piers and extensions can be added or altered at will, with no consideration for a cohesive whole.
Indeed I've been watching a housing estate near me going up over the past three years, and even as it is being constructed people are choosing to install white PVC in what is an otherwise exclusively brown windowed and 'faciaed' development.

Also the most farcical, most ridiculously overscaled, most cumbersome porch extensions and roofs are being added onto the 3yr old houses in the first phase - again with much of the estate not even finished! And as horrible as it is, the standard developer sunny yellow is already being replaced on some houses (all semi-ds) with magnolia or cream! The most pointless slightest varitation in colour, but just enough to upset the whole cart, and of course just enough to stamp clearly 'this is my patch'

If we cannot even design our residential buildings properly in this country, the very least we can do is insist that a coherent and ordered look be maintained.

[Devin]

I remember when the ‘Balgaddy A’ architect-designed residential scheme in Clondalkin was completed there was a feature on it in the paper - http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2004/000066.html - and its architect, Sean Harrington, said it would “break his heart” if people started putting PVC windows in the houses. I wonder if this has happened yet?