O' Connell Street

[GregF]

I think the building looks better today in it's remodelled form. The long vertical windows add kinda elegance.

[colm07]

I have been looking at some of Graham's photos of the GPO, both pre and post 1916. I notice that after 1916 there are square vents directly between the windows of the first and second floors. Pre 1916 there wasnt any. My first thought it was for steel support for the above floor but that doesnt make any sense...why the vent?
What ever happened to the symbol in the triangle above the GPO columns, its gone after 1916? I apologise for my lack of vocabulary (triangle) dont know the correct term.

[Alek Smart]

Interesting bit of Ass-Covering codology goin on presently at Princes St/O Connell St.
Somebody has obviously costed the amount of Garda man-hours which has to be spent here at peak times.

The result is a flurry of digging and setting in of some tactile edging at each "side" of the entrance to Princes St.

Added to this is yet another Stainless Steel Pole or perhaps two in anticipation of some additional signalling to augment the present ped crossing array.

Slight oversight on the original comprehensive safety-audited IAP design no doubt.

Nothing to be concerned about...Nobody killed,Nobody Dismissed,Nobody responsible.....However...I wonder if the City Manager,Asst City Manager,Director of Traffic and Chief Engineer have considered the possible negative effects of yet another Pole on the Reversing Artic which appears there each evening at 18.45 ish.....

If anybody wishes to see what long commercials or PSV`s can do to traffic signal poles (Ad nauseum) then have a peep at Leeson St/Pembroke St junction where another new pole has just been erected following yet another flattening job.....Wonder what was recorded on the CCTV unit specially installed to keep watch on this very pole.......??

[johnfp]

I`ve noiced in my recent net surfings that Dublin is being increasingly portrayed by images of the Docklands which I must say, , gives a far better impression of the city. O Connell Street , the recognised main thoroughfare of the city , is increasingly fading into the background, which is sad really given it`s historical importance. I mean , if you stand back from O Connell bridge and look northwards, you cannot help but admire the structural elegance of the street and what it once represented, long since destroyed by neon lights, atrocious advertising, despicable shop fronts, fast food outlets and horrendous traffic congestion. What an opportunity the IAP presented, and what did we get ?
A totally disproportionate spike (representing drug abuse in the area ?) and a resurfacing / paving exercise that seemed to take an eternity. You wouldn’t think it approaching it now but O Connell Street has many beautiful buildings, GPO, Carlton Cinema, Ambassador, The Gresham, Clerys so why couldn’t the street be redeveloped highlighting the existing architectural merits, instead of having them swamped up in a mass of convenience stores etc. I mean that’s what people notice when they go there, not what’s good about the place. Whoever is responsible for this shambles should hang their heads in shame. If the political will was there I`ve no doubt the various parties could work together to produce potentially the finest thoroughfare in Europe, but this is Ireland and the more things change , the more they say the same.
I`m off to the Docklands..

PS , when is somebody going to knock that God awful Burger King shit hole at the lower end of the street. That semi circular window facade on the first floor has done my head in for years !

[notjim]

Thanks god for this: it is no longer planned to close the gpo in favour of a museum, instead the plan is to glass over the internal coutyards and include a museum as well: from the Times,

Proposals to glaze over the hidden courtyards of the GPO in Dublin and open them to the public as part of a plan to create a museum for the centenary of the 1916 Rising will be presented to Taoiseach Bertie Ahern shortly, The Irish Times has learned.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ire...721063271.html

[Alek Smart]

Just to reinforce Johnfp`s views on O Connell St`s general dishevellment,has anybody noticed how the much vaunted eternal Light atop the The Spire of Light has been extinguished since before St Patricks Day.

Interestingly the red Air Navigation Light has also been absent for that time,something which could well have proven hazardous for the VIP`s reviewing the Easter Commeration Parade should one or more of the Air Corp`s pilots become disorientated from all the Loop de Looping etc.

All the oul DCC talk about the Spire`s Lighting System being of the super long life variety appears to have been quietly forgotten........quelle surprise !!

[Morlan]

The whole thing is meant to be floodlit for god's sake. When's that going to happen?

[fergalr]

The 12th of Never.
The saga with the Spire completely highlights how inept our public representatives can be.

The sculpture, which I like a lot, is now brown in the day and invisible at night. I think the latter is currently preferable!

[Morlan]

Emailed the DCC twice over the past year, no response.

I wonder do the architects have anything to say about it.. I'm going to email them.

[hutton]

Originally Posted by johnfp

I`ve noiced in my recent net surfings that Dublin is being increasingly portrayed by images of the Docklands which I must say, , gives a far better impression of the city. O Connell Street , the recognised main thoroughfare of the city , is increasingly fading into the background, which is sad really given it`s historical importance. I mean , if you stand back from O Connell bridge and look northwards, you cannot help but admire the structural elegance of the street and what it once represented, long since destroyed by neon lights, atrocious advertising, despicable shop fronts, fast food outlets and horrendous traffic congestion. What an opportunity the IAP presented, and what did we get ?
A totally disproportionate spike (representing drug abuse in the area ?) and a resurfacing / paving exercise that seemed to take an eternity. You wouldn’t think it approaching it now but O Connell Street has many beautiful buildings, GPO, Carlton Cinema, Ambassador, The Gresham, Clerys so why couldn’t the street be redeveloped highlighting the existing architectural merits, instead of having them swamped up in a mass of convenience stores etc. I mean that’s what people notice when they go there, not what’s good about the place. Whoever is responsible for this shambles should hang their heads in shame. If the political will was there I`ve no doubt the various parties could work together to produce potentially the finest thoroughfare in Europe, but this is Ireland and the more things change , the more they say the same.
I`m off to the Docklands..

Originally Posted by Alek Smart

Interesting bit of Ass-Covering codology goin on presently at Princes St/O Connell St.
Somebody has obviously costed the amount of Garda man-hours which has to be spent here at peak times.
The result is a flurry of digging and setting in of some tactile edging at each "side" of the entrance to Princes St.
Added to this is yet another Stainless Steel Pole or perhaps two in anticipation of some additional signalling to augment the present ped crossing array.
Slight oversight on the original comprehensive safety-audited IAP design no doubt.
Nothing to be concerned about...Nobody killed,Nobody Dismissed,Nobody responsible.....However...I wonder if the City Manager,Asst City Manager,Director of Traffic and Chief Engineer have considered the possible negative effects of yet another Pole on the Reversing Artic which appears there each evening at 18.45 ish.....

What did we get indeed! Its always the little things that bug - you ignore them for a while and, despite the best attempts at optomism, they just add up

Well to begin with, we got a street where Quirkey's amusement arcade is still operating good-oh - except now the slot/ gaming machine section is larger than ever. Totally against DCC policy of course and a real two-fingered salute to the municipality and its citizens. Will there be enforcement? Dont hold your breath is my advice - it hasnt happened yet, and is unlikely to in the foreseeable future. Of course the real question is why is there no enforcement?

Then theres the Carlton site, where Sean Carey assisted by Ciaran MacNamara saw fit to initiate CPO'ing the site, only 2 years after it got permission, and apparently just after the UK based Grosvenor Group had indicated their interest in being the anchor investors. This was well covered in both Village and Phoenix last year. Happily although the CPO is not yet complete, DCC thru its agents saw fit to sell off Carlton for less than 50M in an untendered deal to Joe O' Reilly of Castlethorn. Among the more interesting clauses in the deal is one which apparently give JoR up to 7 years to develop, and if not satisfactory he can sell it back to DCC at full market price. Nice when you can get it. Suffice to say, no section 183 had been passed by councilors releasing the sites, and the first they were aware of the deal was last year - after the 16 Moore St people started kicking up a fuss. How, eh, interesting

And then there's the public domain itself, where great concepts seem to have taken priority over the practical application. The cycle way on the right-hand side; now you see it, now you don't. All gone now - cycleway, sure what would you want one of those for in a renovated st? Sure aren't DCC doing a great job for cyclists by getting "free" bicycles for them? But in reality, how much more of a cycle-unfriendly environment could you have than the renovated O'C St - all the junctions left as they are. And for a real treat, try turning right on to Parnell St east, or left coming from same st - you simply can't without breaking the law. Absolutely outragous and indicative of the real level of committment by DCC towards cycle provision.

Or there's the pedestrian crossing at the south-bound, southern end of O'C St, outside Irish Nationwide. An excellent folly - the sequence is still the same whereby its green man for pedestrians, then red, then green again - all while traffic has a red light. Its been like this for at least 10 years, and will most likely be the same in 2017.

I have made criticisms on this thread already re the lack of seating, amount of poles, narrowness of the central median, and how poor design choice has of paving at the central section has resulted in a dangerous blur for pedestrians where it is not automatically clear where the pavement ends and the road begins - this last issue of dimensional ambiguity also arises with the side of Clerys. Anyway rest assured I am not going to repeat my crits on those again.

Personally I think the real monuments on O'C St is the concrete block at Abbey St and the adverts that are going to soon festoon the place, courtesy of deals such as with JC Decaux.

7 years of disruption and €100 million on, was it worth it? Not as it is, imo.

[GrahamH]

colm07 the vents in the GPO walls are simply ventilation grids, probably installed in the 1924-29 reconstruction. The opportunity was taken to modernise many aspects of the building at that time. The Royal Coat of Arms was taken down post-1916 even though it wasn't damaged during the Rising. There's some more information on the GPO rebuilding and coat of arms about half way down this page:

http://www.archiseek.com/content/sho...t=2087&page=61

Yes great news last week about the GPO museum conversion being scaled down.


As far as I recall hutton, the O'Connell Street Project cost €40 million, not €100 million.
But agreed on some of the points made: the lack of seating is a disgrace, as is the lack of cycling provision. Indeed there's an irony in the creation of bicycle parking in an entirely inappropriate location on the median, on a street that makes no offical provision for cyclists to get there!
There's way too many traffic poles at junctions, the taxi rank obviously shouldn't be here, and some of the bridge light sequences are as dodgy as ever.

However I think the repaving has by and large been a success, and the street is for the most part exceptionally well maintained. I see some of your points johnfp in relation to properties, but there's only so much DCC can do about their appearance and size. Without question enforcement is simply not being taken seriously, but equally the smaller unassuming buildings on the street aren't exactly easy to alter in terms of appearance and particularly occupiers. O'Connell Street's units for the most part are absolutely tiny - nothing other than an amalgamation of several can lead to any real changes of retail mix on this thoroughfare, something which ought to have been included in the IAP and SPCA. Indeed I think an amendment ought to be made to the latter to take account of this and encourage larger units, particularly with Hammam Buildings and possibly on Lower east too. Oddly, Ann Summers would be a successful example of this.

And leave Burger King alone! With its elegant steel windows and balcony reinserted, and a more muted facade treatment, it could make for an attractive addition to the entrance to the street.

[lostexpectation]

Originally Posted by GrahamH

And leave Burger King alone! With its elegant steel windows and balcony reinserted, and a more muted facade treatment, it could make for an attractive addition to the entrance to the street.

again I wonder if DCC has an active anti-sit ( your supposed to be shopping [s]citizen[/s] consumer) policy?

[hutton]

Originally Posted by GrahamH

As far as I recall hutton, the O'Connell Street Project cost €40 million, not €100 million.

Phew, that's 60 M saved so

[jdivision]

Originally Posted by hutton

Then theres the Carlton site, where Sean Carey assisted by Ciaran MacNamara saw fit to initiate CPO'ing the site, only 2 years after it got permission, and apparently just after the UK based Grosvenor Group had indicated their interest in being the anchor investors. This was well covered in both Village and Phoenix last year. Happily although the CPO is not yet complete, DCC thru its agents saw fit to sell off Carlton for less than 50M in an untendered deal to Joe O' Reilly of Castlethorn. Among the more interesting clauses in the deal is one which apparently give JoR up to 7 years to develop, and if not satisfactory he can sell it back to DCC at full market price. Nice when you can get it. Suffice to say, no section 183 had been passed by councilors releasing the sites, and the first they were aware of the deal was last year - after the 16 Moore St people started kicking up a fuss. How, eh, interesting

Off topic but all of the above was first reported in The Sunday Business Post. And it's not apparently giving O'Reilly seven years, it's written in the deal. I wrote about it having seen the document. Sorry to be sensitive about it but somebody on this thread previously accused me of "flying a kite" regarding the Carlton site even though everything was subsequently proved accurate.

[Peter Fitz]

speaking of the carlton, does anyone know what stage its at? now that the abbey is definitely not a runner, opportunity missed, imo...

was sitting in the Gresham last week, having a nice pint at a window seat, taking in the view of what is probably the longest derelict stretch in the city, and its on our main street, pretty shameful really, given everything thats going on elsewhere.

[jdivision]

Part of the site has been vacant since the 1970s, incredible. It's basically stuck in the courts, awaiting a Supreme Ct hearing or verdict, not sure which off top of my head.

[hutton]

Originally Posted by Peter FitzPatrick

speaking of the carlton, does anyone know what stage its at? now that the abbey is definitely not a runner, opportunity missed, imo...

was sitting in the Gresham last week, having a nice pint at a window seat, taking in the view of what is probably the longest derelict stretch in the city, and its on our main street, pretty shameful really, given everything thats going on elsewhere.

Re Jdivision - Supreme Court hearing has been heard and judgement is awaited.
Re PVCKing, that story was buried in the middle of the Post, and not particularly punchily written imo.

Here's the piece from last November - Friends of the Irish Environment circulated it on their very useful "Papers Today" email service - well worth subscribing to imo, and also free-of-charge.

FROM PHOENIX:

Whats on at the Carlton?

Dublin City Councillors found themselves in interesting waters in
their November session when they held part of their meeting en camera,
in an attempt to get to the bottom of the Carlton Cinema controversy –
and what may or may not have been the councils role in it.

Having got the go-ahead for regeneration from planners in 1999, the
2-acre site framed by O'Connell Street and Moore Street became bogged
down in a mire of lawsuits, involving a compulsory purchase order, the
subsequent challenges, and a bitter row between the two main former
partners of the Carlton Group, Richard Quirke and Paul Clinton.

Most probably the saga would have continued to remain out of public
sight had it not been for the remarkably inconvenient "rediscovery" of
the historical significance of16 Moore Street – the house in which the
1916 surrender was agreed, and which sits right in the middle of the
site.

The heat really turned up earlier this year when those seeking to save
16 Moore Street made another discovery – in that they turned up a
contract in which the council provides assurances to the developer Joe
O' Reilly with regards to the entire site, and in effect giving him
first preference on the 2-acre site redevelopment.

Agreed in 2004, this deal appears to make no reference to the City
Development Plan in which it is stated as policy to "seek the
conversion of no. 16 Moore Street into a museum, which will be owned,
run and administered by Dublin City Council".

The existence of this contract also came as news to city councilors –
as too did the existence of a subsequent compensation claim lodged by
Paul Clinton in which he is seeking his share of €180 million, based
on a valuation done by his agents.

In the quest for answers from management, councilors were coming up
against a brick wall by being told that by being before the courts,
the subject is sub judice – hence the latest twist where eventually it
was agreed that an en camera session be held.

Fortunately Goldhawk has seen the contact and is aware of some of the
more juicy questions that were asked by councilors such as, why was
there so much haste by council officials in initiating the CPO in
December 2001, when barely 2 years had passed on a project that had a
5 year planning permission? Why was the subsequent deal that the corpo
agreed with Joe O' Reilly not put out to tender – particularly as it
was reported in January 2003 that "the project will be advertised
across Europe by Dublin City Council and assistant city manager Sean
Carey said they expect to begin the marketing programme within three
weeks"? Why is O'Reilly given 7 years in the agreement as well as a
clause that states that the corpo "will give whatever comforts are
required to the Developer's bankers to allow them to fund the
development of the site"? By agreeing not to pursue the site by CPO,
the agreement with O'Reilly effectively approves his acquisition of
the site from the Group Carlton, as agreed by Richard Quirke – a sale
vehemently disputed by Clinton; yet why does the city council not have
a copy of the primary agreement with Quirke – especially as it is such
a source of contention?

To all of these questions, and to more, city officials have insisted
that they have shown "due care and diligence" in their dealings, and
that as the local authority it is their brief to act as a "catalyst"
and knock developers heads together in order to get regeneration done.
And so the saga rolls on – with the next stop being Clintons challenge
to the CPO due in front of the Supreme Court during December.

***


Now doesn't that all look so nice - particularly when put in the context of other hush-hush deals as with JC Decaux, where again councilors were not informed until after the fact. This town is going down the tubes rapido

[hutton]

Originally Posted by jdivision

...The Sunday Business Post... I wrote about it having seen the document.

Yikes - just after noticing that now, so my apologies to both yourself and PVCKing for making a complete hames in my off-the-cuff remarks about not punchily written. No offence intended - the real crit I had with that article was with the heading, which would have been a subeditors flaw.

[Peter Fitz]

great, a stunning complex mess.

thanks for posting hutton.

[PVC King]

Tony's mails are always interesting

Sad state of affairs when an american is saddled with so much of the work in a country once known as a green and pleasant land.

[hutton]

Originally Posted by Peter FitzPatrick

great, a stunning complex mess.

thanks for posting hutton.

Thanks - I hope I didnt confuse it further with my crit as corrected in the above post!

You can see my point though, that put in context one wonders whether we are indeed witnessing is a "Redestruction of Dublin" -

A few examples:

1)Carlton / O'C St dereliction & DCC's role in the same.

2)DCC/ JC Decaux billboards deal - again no clear sanction from Councilors and so many questions.

3)The "Grim Dame" St monstrosity & "Sterile Square" - DCC directly responsible again

4)The Greek Revival Church facade on Sean McDermott St - left graffittied, weed-strewn etc, while an utterly non-contextualised development is built right up against on most sides; happily this all occurred less than 100 feet away from DCC's own SMacD St Offices

5)The "Henrietta Hag" on the corner of Bolton St, and obliterating the entrance of "Dublin's premier heritage street" as DCC may call it - while at the same time producing a plan with no budget or schedule.

6)Pass on from the Hag, and just a further 100 or so yards up on the right, and you will come upon the remainder of the birthplace of Brinsley Sheridan on Dorset St. Stood intact with 4 floors over basement in the 80s; was then "protected" on the Record of Protected Structures - now has 3 floors, and soon will have none if the DCC permission holds sway at BP level. "Protected" indeed - just like the Sean MacDermott St Church.

7) Then there's the Georgian that stood at the corner of Bridgefoot St, that was there for maybe 250 years - only to be, eh, removed over a weekend a few weeks ago. Not on the RPS as such, but instead this time in a "Conservation Area". Indeed.

8) Further down the quays, there are other derelict structures that DCC may also want to look at; a CPO perhaps? Maybe not, as the infamous Fridges on Capel St/ Grattan Bridge already belong to DCC, as they were the, eh, "developer" there. An ugly imposition with only 1 out of 4 commercially functioning? FFS.

9) And from the Fridges, you only have to glance up to see DCC's standards of enforcement, with the corner-house of Capel Street, with its rare round-headed windows as depicted by Malton. Sitting there effectively derelict for how many years now; a most thoughtful gesture by one of its last users was to leave one unauthorised satelite dish finguring out from the corner; as a fitting singular gesture to the DCC HQ opposite on Woodquay, its hard to beat. And dont worry, I wont get started on the destruction of the 16th C houses further up Capel St way, as I know I have gone way off topic and ranted on enough.

Problems with O'Connell Street - sure thats only the tip of it

[hutton]

Originally Posted by Peter FitzPatrick

speaking of the carlton, does anyone know what stage its at?

Just thought this might be of interest - the original idea to develop a mall from O'Connell St thru to Moore St dates as far back as 1853.
Do you think it'll be completed in another 150 years - or do you reckon the site will still be dogged by the "Curse of the Carlton"??? Bets being taken now, at generous odds of 10 to 1 - redeemable in 2161

Originally Posted by From "Lost Dublin", by Frederick O'Dwyer (page 80)

Moves to redevelop the MOORE STREET MARKET go back as far as 1853
when a Dublin engineer, John S. Sloane (d. 1886) promoted a scheme at
the Great Exhibition. He proposed to build lodging houses, baths and a
market house, and lay out an arcade between Moore Street and Upper
Sackville Street emerging betwen the Bilton Hotel and the Dorset
Institution (q.v.) in Upper Sackville Street. He also proposed the
removal of St Thomas's Church, to extend Gloucester Street and to
remove Nelson Pillar. The 'Irish Builder', commenting on a revived
attempt to promote the project in 1881, thought this last proposal the
only good portion in an otherwise 'absurdly utopian scheme'.

The most important element in Sloane's project was the market house
which was to be circular like the reconstructed Ormond Market off the
quays. He planned to accomodate one hundred victuallers, fishmongers
and greengrocers, twice the number previously in the area. The
building was to be covered with an iron and glass roof, supported on
external walls, and a central cast-iron column which would also
discharge rain-water to cleanse the floor. In answer to the concern in
the city at the presence of slaughterhouses in insanitary
surroundings, Sloane proposed to accommodate abbatoirs around the
perimeter of the building. However the financial failure of the South
City Markets, opened in 1881, ensured that Sloane never got the
backing he desired.

[colm07]

Check this out. Here is three pics of O' Connell St during the war of independance. They are taken from the bottom of Henry St. An 18 pounder was set up and was firing on the anti- treaty IRA embedded in the "block". The block was the area around the Gresham Hotel.

[colm07]

Now look what they done

[GrahamH]

Great pictures Colm.

T.N. Deane's magnificent corner office building is nastily affected there. Indeed there's good archive footage that actually shows the building collapsing, possibly shot after hostilities had ended.

They also spelt the end for the grandest and one of the oldest houses on the street, Drogheda House next door, which was originally rented by the 3rd Earl of Drogheda from Gardiner in the 1750s, as seen in the middle below.




As was mentioned earlier on this thread, part of it was demolished to make way for the office building in the 1860s.





Originally posted by Devin


And then largely destroyed in 1922.




What a loss to the history of the street, as was much of this terrace. Very odd to see Merrion Square-like houses on O'Connell Street!