New view of the riverside elevation of the proposed Convention Centre at Spencer Dock

http://www.archiseek.com/gifs/convention.gif

Viva Laaaas Vegaaaasssss!

What is that THING to the right of the picture? Contextual architecture or what? Yeehaarrrr!!!!

There is more than just the centre - there are offices and hotels and apartments.

oh, really? i suppose it's all o.k. then.

What posessed the developers of this project to go for Kevin Roche as architect. His work down the years has been at best patchy and his large scale work of the 80's and 90's has been disgustingly commercial, often lapsing into totally ridiculous po-mo pastiche. The perspective view is bad enough but the elevation is enough to make me sick. The nescessary density should be housed in elegant, extremely tall towers, designed to the highest standard, leaving the maximum public space at the riverside. Such a scheme would be a spectacular asset to the city, not a horrendous blot on the landscape as the current prospect of stumpy, lumpen slabs would certainly be. And the convention centre itself... One jazzy gimmick, ie the tilted glass drum, does not lead to a successful building. The other elevations are unspeakably dull. Something has to be done to stop this entire monstrosity from being built.

Any Ideas as to who should be asked to design this scheme?? I wonder how some of our own, like O'Donnell-Twomey or Shay Cleary would handle such a scale of building. I think even Scott Tallon Walker would do a better job than what is being proposed.

[This message has been edited by BTH (edited 12 March 1999).]

There was an interesting article about the development today's Irish Times by Paul Keogh, which raised a few very pertinent issues until it rather unfortunately descended into yet another plug for the architects comprising Group 91.

That aside, it is true that the issue of the longer-term development of the area looks like it's being overlooked, with short term profit motives dictating how the area is to be developed.

If built, the most positive thing that could be said about the architectural language of this development is that it would perfectly reflect the values of the society which produced it.

Yeah, i saw the article. I didn't think there was anything new in it - it contained all the usual posturing that this 'select' group of architects have been peddling for years.

As to the suggestion that STW be involved, I'm glad BTH said 'even Scott Tallon Walker would do a better job than what is being proposed'... the thoughs of STW getting another chance to roll out the same design in another city venur is scary - look at the Smurfit Building at Lincoln Place, Wood Quay, the Engineering Building in UCD - the same bland motifs and use of materials. Granted the inside of the Wood Quay building is quite impressive but the overwhelming sense is one of banality and safety in design.

I see now that it has been sent back to the developers for reworking....

i like the plan. i just think spencer dock is the wrong place. it should be further away from the city center, but more easily connected transit wise.

Y'know the bit on the right of the the front elevation looks a lot like that Ulster Bank heap by the City Arts Centre.

J

Actually the more you see of it, the worse it looks:

It's just so alien, so american

Rumour has it Kevin Roche will be on The Late Late Show this Friday.

This could be interesting... is it going to be a fawning interview or is he being set up with a hostile panel?

Or at least a panel that can debate architecture?

Ah yes. The desperate deployment of a Platonic form - here the cylinder - in an attempt to achieve the big urban gesture. I.M. Pei is rather better at this sort of thing.

Actually the tilted glass cylinder engaged with an orthogonal form is no bad idea, and I'm not aware of such an example anywhere else (please enlighten me, everyone). Just a bit of a shame that - to go by the published images - the cylinder is the only possibly good thing about an otherwise largely illiterate and over-scaled building.

Would that tilted glass drum be facing due south, by the way? If so, I suspect they will either have to lose that transparency, or roast.

Its facing directly south!

As far as I know, the only building that has had its design finalised is the Conference Centre, the other buildings have not yet been looked at in any depth save height and space. I am hoping for something a lot more interesting than the rubbish in the above picture.

[This message has been edited by Peter FitzPatrick (edited 22 February 2000).]

I like it. Alien to Dublin it currently is, but it is situated in a area that can take it. Yes it will change Dublin. Is change so terrible? Can't people wait to see finalised plans with full textures before dismissing the whole thing. The NCC building is unusual and would make a lovely addition to the north quays.

Im sick to death of people saying that a development must relate to its surroundings. Thats crap, in most [and this] cases.

The alternative to this project will surely be a bland low-rise scheme along the lines of the current IFSC buildings which totally under-utilise the limited space in Dublin. In a prosperous city, we need to maximise areas like the docks for development. Not that I advocate giving carte blanche to developers. I think the reduction in floor space and overall bulk of the Spencer Dock project has improved its scale immensely.

I don't understand the local residents who seem to just want social housing, and low rise offices to perpetuate the boring hole that most of that area is.

Lets keep Dublin west of the Customs House low rise but allow a new, vibrant character to develop in the currently monotonous docks district, that acts as a foil to all the history and old world charm of the city centre. Look at La Défense in Paris for example.

Spencer Dock's architect, Mr Roche, was to have appeared on RTÉ's Late Late Show tomorrow but he pulled out after learning that many of the third-party objectors would also be present.

I have a half hunch that the scheme is going to be thrown out. reading the newspapers, the anti-development side seem to have good expert witnesses and their homework done. I reckon Dermot Desmond will tilt the balance in their favour.

I have a half hunch that the scheme is going to be thrown out. reading the newspapers, the anti-development side seem to have good expert witnesses and their homework done. I reckon Dermot Desmond will tilt the balance in their favour.

It may be ugly but it is not overly huge in the greater scheme of things

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/02/27/STN27scale.275x198.gif?999

See that the Waterfront Hall in Belfast has been awarded for being one of the best conferences centres in Europe, if not the world. We down south still lack a National Conference Centre. Foot dragging by governments have made us miss out. Like the National Stadium debacle this has gone on long enough. How about they commit themselves and have this much needed thing built. Spencer Dock has to be favourite for Kevin Roche's proposal.

The City government in Prague is trying to sell their convention centre, which was expensively rebuilt with borrowed money a few years back, as it is losing huge amounts of money annually.

No if you were an American conventioneer which would you chose Prague and cheap beer or Dublin and dear beer, which would you pick?

Originally posted by dc3
The City government in Prague is trying to sell their convention centre, which was expensively rebuilt with borrowed money a few years back, as it is losing huge amounts of money annually.

No if you were an American conventioneer which would you chose Prague and cheap beer or Dublin and dear beer, which would you pick?

Dublin because most bosses would never pay for their staff to go on a piss up, conventions are a serious business. I like the idea of city west it is very handy coming in from where I'm from.

Well that settles it then.

Originally posted by PVC King

Dublin because most bosses would never pay for their staff to go on a piss up, conventions are a serious business.

I never thought I'd agree with anyone called PVC King but you are right, Convention centres are a serious business that generate a huge spin-off tourist industry beyond that diectly attributable to the conventions.

Frankfurt is the best example of this with the World Famous Book Fair and Auto Show headlining the many conventions held there annually. The Citizens loved them because pub opening hours were extended by 2 hours within the tourist area Sachsenhausen which would be directly comparable to Temple Bar.

Originally posted by PVC King I like the idea of city west it is very handy coming in from where I'm from.

It might be a great location for those en route from Inchedony to Ard Fheis, but conference centres are generally for International Conventions so a City Centre location would be preferable.

I entirely agree with GregF Kevin Roches tribute to the gasometer must be the front runner, along with the National Stadium I would like to add a realistic commuter transport system to the list of things that have been dithered by Mary O'Rourke and her successors in title.

If the government allowed Mansfields City West Hotel to become the National Showcase it really would send out all the wrong signals.

yeah, well, for proper international conference need a unique selling point and dublin being dublin has that, city of joyce, dublin pubs, national gallery, 1916, shelbourne park, blah blah blah, a spencer dock confernce centre can market all of that, city west can't , any city, say sheffied or leeds or whereever can build a conference centre on the ring road, only dublin can be dublin. it has to be in the city centre.

Those who have been following the Conference Centre deliberations (article in todays paper attached) they will know that citywest is not shortlisted as a possible site for the National Conference Centre. Spencer Dock is shortlisted but as previously mentioned in this thread - the design is awful, it is surrounded by apartments and offices, it is not on the waterfront.
Another group has a submission in for the racetrack in Leapordstown which one would only have to fondly remember the Baileys Icon to judge. (Those empty golden buses shooting up the Stillorgan Dual Carriageway!) The remaining submission which I personally prefer is down beside the Point Depot, has large surrounding space for ancillary non-commercial development (national theatre, national stadium, national welly throwing arena), has the C1 Luas extension to the door, footbridges etc. to the southside, Port Tunnel to the airport and beyond and Dublin Port for cruise ships and passenger ferries.

Whether one will actually be built this time (I stand to be corrected but have not Treasury won this competition twice before?) or a decision reached before 2006 remains to be seen but Dublin would be the preferred destination of hundreds of well heeled groups of conferencees for whom the destination city is just as important as the actual talks.




Minister blames red tape for delayed conference centre plan
Arthur Beesley, Political Reporter
26/10/2004




The Government will be unable to select a group to build the national conference centre until late next summer at the earliest due to "tortuous" red tape in the Department of Finance, the Minister for Tourism has indicated.


Mr O'Donoghue wanted a preferred bidder chosen before Christmas, but he has conceded that the deadline will not be met because of the bureaucracy involved in the public-private partnership funding model being used by the Government.

In remarks to the Dáil last week that were not reported at the time, the Minister said the process should be changed.

"As far as my experience goes, it is tortuous in the extreme," he said. "It is tortuous for the officials involved, the Minister and those who are interested in becoming involved in construction. I hope that one of these days someone will see sense and change the guidelines governing this process. I have rarely come across as much red tape or bureaucracy in all my days travelling."

The groups shortlisted last July by the Government are said to be frustrated at the delays in the process, which was initiated last January. Those on the list include the long-time bidder Treasury Holdings, which wants to build the centre at Spencer Dock in central Dublin.

The Anna Livia Consortium, led by Bennett Construction, wants to build the centre at a site owned by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority near the Point Theatre. The group involving the construction firm Michael McNamara and the Leopardstown Club Consortium wants to build it on land owned by Horse Racing Ireland adjacent to the Carrickmines end of the Leopardstown racecourse.

Mr O'Donoghue said in the Dáil that the public-private partnership was "necessarily complex" and was being carried out in accordance with interim guidelines developed by the Department of Finance.

The preparation of detailed project documentation was demanding and time-consuming.

While it would not be possible to select a preferred bidder before the end of the year, Mr O'Donoghue said the objective now was to to ensure that invitations to tender were issued to the three pre-qualified candidates before Christmas.

Has anyone read the Bord Pleanala refusal from earlier this year. It is extremely clear "only a city centre site will be considered"

As notjim said the Dublin of...............

but I still reckon Limerick would put on a better show

Originally posted by Thomond Park
Has anyone read the Bord Pleanala refusal from earlier this year. It is extremely clear "only a city centre site will be considered"

Irrelevant I fear. The South Dublin Council momentum to rezone City West is more or less unstoppable.

Once this happens Mansfield will proceed to complete his erection as a convention centre whether ABP likes it or not.

Thereafter, the pressure on the Government to co-fund anything else will be minimal. (Anyway Mansfield will probably be off to the EU Commission or European Court complaining about anti competitive State Aids or something if the Government incentivises or co-funds a city centre competitor)

Originally posted by vinnyfitz


Irrelevant I fear. The South Dublin Council momentum to rezone City West is more or less unstoppable.

Once this happens Mansfield will proceed to complete his erection as a convention centre whether ABP likes it or not.

Thereafter, the pressure on the Government to co-fund anything else will be minimal. (Anyway Mansfield will probably be off to the EU Commission or European Court complaining about anti competitive State Aids or something if the Government incentivises or co-funds a city centre competitor)

Once rezoned it still will make little difference thankfully, every Bord Pleanala considers the appropriateness of the zoning by the Local Authority, the conference centre will not be considered by ABP at this location unless a new Government policy document is drafted. It is very much a situation of the National being considered first and the local second.

As for government funding I totally agree with you, there is no political will to deliver on this project. The RDS were awarded generous grants for this project in 1997, and it was Mary O'Rourke who stopped the process by launching another competition.

Get the Minister for Limerick to rebuild Thomond Park put a retractable roof over it and give us our conference centre.

I wish you were right. But unless there is an explicit government policy statement over-ruling random convention centres - which is not in place at the moment, the Board will have no veto over some thing like this.

Read the decision again. The basis of refusal was the contravention of zoning.

The target market will be very different in citywest. He really will not be a competitive threat to whichever one is built in the docklands. At least he doesnt have kevin Roche turning a sugar bowl on it's side.

The target market will be very different in citywest. He really will not be a competitive threat to whichever one is built in the docklands. At least he doesnt have kevin Roche turning a sugar bowl on it's side.

The cylendrical form of Roches design must be understood in the context of the 'Dublin Gasometer' that stood almost directly opposite the Spencer Dock site. It was taken down and the ground around it de-contaminated, in that regard it is a bold statement of the old merging into the new. Of all the proposals I have seen it is the only one with any originality. It certainly has to be a million times better than a second generation industrial building with a mock georgian facade.

It will in my opinion entirely undermine the viability of any subsequent conference centre as Mansfield will attempt to undercut any other market entrant as he will have the inferior product there would be no other market play.

The presence of another conference centre albiet warehouse specification will create enough market risk to drive most if not all potential market entrants. In essence leaving with us with a large warehouse to showcase Ireland to the world, which simply will not be capable of attracting the Regional i.e. European Level conferences needed to acheive the Tourism Ireland conference centre objectives

At least we are all experienced enough here to recognise individual opinions on architecture! ;)
Do you mean the gasometer McNamara's are building in? still standing last time I was there.
Part of the National Conference Centre competition involves proposing an operator. I dont think any of the bidders find that a problem.
The Illinois association of Cardio Surgeons will only have their conference in Dublin if there is a city centre location so their partners can shop. The competition is for a national conference centre, let Mansfield have his amateur snooker tournaments and sausage making conventions, the ancillary and direct spend is at least 5 times lower.

Seriously though, Roche's design: uni-faceted, unyielding, tombsone to modern architecture. Sort of reminds me of the last shot fired in the war of independence. Am open to contradiction though

Do you mean the gasometer McNamara's are building in? still standing last time I was there. Part of the National Conference Centre competition involves proposing an operator. I dont think any of the bidders find that a problem.

Thyat one remains it is part of the 'Gasworks Scheme' where Goolgle have their EMEA offices, the one I was talking about stood on the Corner of John Rogersons Quay and Cardiff Lane until about 10 years ago, it was much taller and was a stale shade of grey, but was a readily identifiable landmark from most parts of Dublin. It was so ugly that most people grew to accept it.


The Illinois association of Cardio Surgeons will only have their conference in Dublin if there is a city centre location so their partners can shop. The competition is for a national conference centre, let Mansfield have his amateur snooker tournaments and sausage making conventions, the ancillary and direct spend is at least 5 times lower.

I don't agree even though I can see the merit in what you are saying, Property developers work on risk and reward and any conference centre is extremely high risk, but one where a competitor exists (particularly one that only has the ability to cut on price and would be doing so aggressively) in a market as small as Dublin would be beyond the risk profile bourne by virtually all Irish developers.

What there is no risk in building is an industrial building and calling it a conference centre, no-one would get planning for this proposal in the DCC area although a high spec conference centre would require a number of sausage conventions and snooker events to cover annual running costs. The Frankfurt Messe hosts about 100 events per year of which less than 20% are the type of conference it originally intended to host. It is an accepted fact that the Messe wouldn't surviveif it were undercut for these secondary events by an industrial shed on the periphery. :confused:

Mansfield will make his money from the hotel rooms like any other conference centre. Most National conference centres are technically loss leaders however the Earlscourt Olympia group in London according to estimates published by the British government is responsible for 2bn spend for every 2oom of their turnover.
Your argument on risk and reward appears correct although it does not stand up in practice as there are to my knowledge and according to the article above, 3 property developers competing for the national conference centre competition who would not be doing it if it wasnt going to make money. I would expect that this would include government subsidy in the short term however if the benefit to the Irish economy was going to be a multiple of 10 of the capital input surely that would be a benefit to all? Again, the vast majority of this spend will come from a market that Mansfield will have no access to. Dublin is one of the most desirable destinations in surveys of the large international conference organisers but they would not go to a shed in the suburbs.

The Frankfurt Messe by the way is competing against the Saalbau and the Jahrhunderthalle Frankfurt.

How about a shed in the midlands?

Consortium headed by Pat McDonagh (Supermac founder) has lodged an inital plan for conference center and hotel in Athlone with westmeath co-co.

indo article (http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1308924&issue_id=11847)

[Bugmenot Irish indo] (http://www.bugmenot.com/view.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unison.ie/irish_independent)

Whatever about the rights and wrongs of building a national conferance centre in Athlone, it has to be said, that building is a shocker!

Spencer Dock Convention Centre Dublin Ltd has today welcomed the news that is the winner of the competition to build the new National Conference Centre, saying it will now build a landmark facility of which Ireland will be proud. Work will begin on the site immediately.

Responding to today’s announcement by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism John O’Donoghue, chairman of SDICC Dermod Dwyer said: "Our team is thrilled that we have been chosen to construct and operate this landmark building. We have dedicated a huge amount of time, effort and resources to ensuring it will be seen as one of the world’s leading convention centres."

Accommodating up to 8,000 delegates, the building has been designed to provide high-quality and flexible meeting space, finished to the highest standards and with the most modern technology available.

"Once this building opens, we will have a facility of which Ireland will be proud," Mr Dwyer said. "It will allow us to welcome major international events with up to 8000 delegates and will give us the opportunity to showcase Dublin, and Ireland, to the world.

"A partnership approach is crucial to this national project, and we would like to express our appreciation to Government, the OPW, CIE and other industry stakeholders," continued Dermod Dwyer. "I would also like to pay tribute to the principals of SDICC - John Ronan, Richard Barrett and Harry Crosbie - whose vision and determination have brought this project to fruition. I salute the dedicated team of professionals who have been involved in the project including the future managers of the conference centre the NEC group; building contractor CMP/Sisk; Architects Kevin Roche John Dinkeloo and Associates; and an extensive range of Irish and International consultants."

The National Conference Centre has been designed by the world-renowned Pritzker prize-winner Kevin Roche. When designing the new centre Roche said his aim was to create a legacy building which would be as iconic as the Four Courts and the Custom House.

Mr Roche stated that, for it to be successful, the centre must be properly planned, well managed and most of all, memorable, "The challenge for me was to design a building for both conventioneers and visitors that is state of the art, a pleasant place to visit and works better than any other conference centre anywhere," he said.

The NCC features a dedicated 2,000 seat auditorium, extensive exhibition and banqueting space and a range of flat-floored conference rooms all served by spacious naturally lit foyers over five levels.

Spencer Dock Convention Centre Dublin Ltd has today welcomed the news that is the winner of the competition to build the new National Conference Centre, saying it will now build a landmark facility of which Ireland will be proud. Work will begin on the site immediately.

Responding to today’s announcement by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism John O’Donoghue, chairman of SDICC Dermod Dwyer said: "Our team is thrilled that we have been chosen to construct and operate this landmark building. We have dedicated a huge amount of time, effort and resources to ensuring it will be seen as one of the world’s leading convention centres."

Accommodating up to 8,000 delegates, the building has been designed to provide high-quality and flexible meeting space, finished to the highest standards and with the most modern technology available.

"Once this building opens, we will have a facility of which Ireland will be proud," Mr Dwyer said. "It will allow us to welcome major international events with up to 8000 delegates and will give us the opportunity to showcase Dublin, and Ireland, to the world.

"A partnership approach is crucial to this national project, and we would like to express our appreciation to Government, the OPW, CIE and other industry stakeholders," continued Dermod Dwyer. "I would also like to pay tribute to the principals of SDICC - John Ronan, Richard Barrett and Harry Crosbie - whose vision and determination have brought this project to fruition. I salute the dedicated team of professionals who have been involved in the project including the future managers of the conference centre the NEC group; building contractor CMP/Sisk; Architects Kevin Roche John Dinkeloo and Associates; and an extensive range of Irish and International consultants."

The National Conference Centre has been designed by the world-renowned Pritzker prize-winner Kevin Roche. When designing the new centre Roche said his aim was to create a legacy building which would be as iconic as the Four Courts and the Custom House.

Mr Roche stated that, for it to be successful, the centre must be properly planned, well managed and most of all, memorable, "The challenge for me was to design a building for both conventioneers and visitors that is state of the art, a pleasant place to visit and works better than any other conference centre anywhere," he said.

The NCC features a dedicated 2,000 seat auditorium, extensive exhibition and banqueting space and a range of flat-floored conference rooms all served by spacious naturally lit foyers over five levels.

Fair play to Treasury Holdings they have displayed a very strong resolve to see this through.

I am delighted that Kevin Roche will be able to do a building in Dublin and this one does his formidable talent real justice.


But back to the issue of the National Conference Centre how has this project only received clearance from the government now?

In 1997 the RDS was the winner of a competition

Also in 1997 Mary O'Rourke reversed the decision

The project is then awarded to Treasury in 1999

The project clears ABP in 2000

The project then has its status removed

A new competition is announced

This project is yet another typical example of essential infrastructural provision in this country. It is no wonder that Treasury are investing billions abroad in projects such as Battersea Power Station and their Chinese Island. I suspect that these investments are a direct result of the hassle it has become in Ireland to do anything cutting edge.

yep i just do not get the delays on this ... not sure either how it will fit "8000" delegates if the main auditorium has a capacity of 2K ? any mention of how much it will cost ?

Do people know is this the same design as has been doing the rounds for the best part of a decade or something a little bit different.

Do people know is this the same design as has been doing the rounds for the best part of a decade or something a little bit different.
Pretty much the same design

City to get conference centre on banks of the Liffey

IT'S been a long time coming but now a glass-fronted newcomer is set to upstage its neighbours on the Liffey and become a landmark on the Dublin skyline.

The five levels of conference rooms, exhibition and banqueting space, and the 2,000-seat auditorium of the National Conference Centre have been much heralded over the past few years.

The UCD-educated architect who created the blueprint for the building admitted he had high aims in mind.

A "legacy" building was Pritzker prize-winning Kevin Roche's aim - one which would be as iconic as the Four Courts and the Custom House.

The €400m project had been mired in planning issues, but permission has finally been granted and diggers are already standing by on the 81-acre site.

Milestone

Arts Minister John O'Donoghue said that yesterday's signing of the contract with the Spencer Dock International Conference Centre Consortium, involving Treasury Holdings, businessman Harry Crosbie and Irish Rail, was a "milestone" for Irish tourism.

The NCC, to be located on the banks of the Liffey at Spencer Dock, will be less than half a mile from O'Connell Street and is expected to be completed by 2010.

The centre, boasting 22 meeting rooms, will accommodate up to 8,000 delegates.

Under the public-private partnership agreement, the consortium have signed up to design, build and finance the centre and will also operate it for a quarter of a century.

During this time it is expected to reap €380m, before the building then reverts to the ownership of the State.

Tourism chiefs have already started taking bookings, with the centre expected to be opening its doors for business in 2010.

Business tourism, including conference travel, is worth €475m to the Irish economy each year, according to Failte Ireland estimates.

Economy

The NCC is expected to be a moneyspinner for the economy, with estimated earnings of up to €50m a year.

Last night tourism and business interests welcomed the awarding of the contract.

Failte Ireland chair Gillian Bowler said Ireland would now be able to compete among the best to attract lucrative events here.

"I am particularly pleased that such a striking and innovative design has been selected, which will enhance the Liffey scape for generations to come," she said.

The Irish Hotels Federation said that the facility would help the country attract a larger share of the €40bn global conference market.

The Dublin Chamber of Commerce said that the announcement came at a critical time, given the loss of venues such as Jurys Ballsbridge, which had over 850 conference seats.

Louise Hogan

Whatever else can be said about the project, it's not less than half a mile away from O'Connell Street.:rolleyes:

It's interesting to see that Irish Rail are still involved down there. That might help to explain their keenness for routing the proposed "interconnector" through the location.

I wonder just how closely they've looked at route options which do not go through Spencer Dock.

I recall there was a proposed underground route between Connolly and Heuston in the mid 70's. We haven't heard much about that in recent years. Irish Rail's continued involvement in Spencer Dock might help to explain that.

The site is not 81 acres which would represent almost 33 hectares. That is the size of the entire Spencer Dock site. This convention centre design appears too small for a major convention. The design is multi story which is poor for a convention centre. I wish the Point Depot site was chosen.

IE maintain that Connolly does not have the capacity for the additional traffic the interconnector would bring & so are routing it through Spencer Dock which given the expansion of the city to the east & now the go ahead for the conference centre seems like an ok decision to me...

IE maintain that Connolly does not have the capacity for the additional traffic the interconnector would bring & so are routing it through Spencer Dock which given the expansion of the city to the east & now the go ahead for the conference centre seems like an ok decision to me...
Connolly in its current guise, with only overground services possible, would not enable the capacity increase which the interconnector would bring. IE are correct about that.

But they originally proposed an underground line which would have gone under Amiens Street, through Temple Bar and on to Heuston. This was proposed in the 1970's, so with improved tunnelling techniques such a line should be a doddle in the modern day. That could connect rather nicely with the LUAS link-up/the Metro somewhere around Westmoreland Street. And given that the proposed tunnel is, apparently to be built to accomodate 12-carriage trains, a connection with Tara Street should also be very feasible.

It's true that there is a certain amount of development going on in the east of the city. But the current centre of the city is already developed, and is always going to be a more popular destination than Spencer Dock or the area around it. Yet the proposed route will make this area more difficult to get to, for people who can currently travel on the northern DART line to Tara Street.

The solution, as far as I can see, is to build the line along the originally proposed route. That way:

1) you bring people directly to Connolly, and those who wish to go to Spencer Dock change onto the LUAS. I suggest that this would suit more people than the proposal that the line gets built to Spencer Dock and those who wish to go to the area around Connolly have to change onto the LUAS. The relative popularity of the two locations should become clear once the red line is extended to the Point. And apparently, because of the gradients involved in going under the river close to Spencer Dock, it looks like there will be a not inconsiderable walk to get from train to tram at the location, making it quite difficult to get to Connolly. On the other hand, this need not be the case at Connolly, as the underground station could be below the level of the river some considerable distance before even arriving at Connolly, so changing to get to Spencer Dock (or Abbey/O'Connell Street) should be quite easy.

2) Tara Street is currently a busier station than Pearse Station, indicating greater popularity. By building the line along the originally proposed route, people could go directly to Tara Street, as they currently can (though they would be doing so underground). That way, you bring people to Tara Street and those who wish to travel to Pearse would change. This is a better arrangement than one where people who wish to get to Tara Street would have to change at Pearse.

3) I believe that the link-up will show that the LUAS stations in and around Westmoreland Street will be more popular (i.e. greater passenger numbers getting on or off) than the station at St. Stephen's Green. If the line were built as originally proposed, this could be catered for by bringing people directly to the Westmoreland Street area, and those who wish to go to St. Stephen's Green would change. In my opinion, this would be better than the currently proposed arrangement where the line goes to St. Stephen's Green and people who want to go to the Westmoreland Street area would have to change.

The originally proposed line would be some distance shorter than the current proposal, so you'd expect that it would be cheaper to build. And it looks to me like it would suit more people - though perhaps not Treasury Holdings. I'm interested to see than IE still have an interest in Spencer Dock - I thought they had sold the whole site to Treasury. But it might help explain why they ditched the original plan.

31/8/2007

Maybe this thread is more suited to the Convention Centre, given there's quite a bit of venting on it...

Can't say I've ever been a fan myself of it, and I suspect the interiors especially are going to require - or have already undergone - substantial modification from the near decade-old plan.

I managed to attend the bells-and-whistles launch of the NCC a number of weeks ago, and certainly the consortium who won the operating contract are very experienced internationally, the Birmingham ICC just one of their sites (albeit the smaller one), so it ought not to be National Aquatic Centre Round II.

The building is divided up as:

Basement: Parking and ancillary services.

Ground Floor: The Forum - the largest on-the-level exhibition space, with 3000 theatre or 2000 banqueting capacities. There's also a vast entrance lobby here. Indeed all the floors have atrium frontage.

First Floor: The Liffey Suite - also on-the-level, this can accommodate 1800 theatre or 1100 banqueting, and also has 11 large meeting rooms and 4 boardrooms, with mezzanine.

Second Floor: The Auditorium - this is three storeys high at the very top of the building, and holds 2000 in raked theatre seating as seen here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/NCC19-6-20074.jpg


The whole complex is highly flexible as is to be expected, and seems to be very well adapted to creating different atmospheres too. For evening conferences the exhibition halls on the lower floors can be transformed for dining, with access to raking night-time views of the Liffey when taking a breather from the event.

However the enormous atrium appears to be little more than a Tribute to the Slab, i.e. the Jervis Centre on steriods, with vast expanses of crisp plasterboard adorning every conceivable surface, which looks decidely unimaginative. Hopefully the video renderings are just vague impressions, with lots of tweaking to be done - but thus far it's certainly not a breathtaking interior. Perhaps the view from the balconies is the main focus of attention.

Some views of the model.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/NCC19-6-20072.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/NCC19-6-20071.jpg

Directly attached to the rear of the centre - as seen above and below - is a proposed hotel, the operator yet to be confirmed. The proposed twisty bridge will adjoin it, running over the canal.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/NCC19-6-20073.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/NCC19-6-20076.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/NCC19-6-20075.jpg


Some of this doesn't seem that accurate - things have changed a little since the model was comissioned in 1947.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/NCC19-6-20077.jpg


Incidentally, on that day I encountered two very well-known journalists - who shall remain nameless - who approached the model after sitting through the video promo, full-on explanation and presentation, and laden with enough glossy literature to line the walls of the said centre, neither with so much as a bull's clue as to where the place was, what it was to house, who designed it, or indeed even the chequered saga of the whole proposal. Indeed the NCC rep there didn't seem to know very much either, and it ended up with myself and another chap explaining the scheme to them. Thought it summed up quite neatly the commitment to the built environment in the Irish media. The abiding memory of the day is: "oh - so this is the Liffey then?"

*points*

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/NCC19-6-20072.jpg

Surely they don't really mean to build that facade? Ludicrous! Look at all that plain stone face.

31/8/2007
Incidentally, on that day I encountered two very well-known journalists - who shall remain nameless - who approached the model after sitting through the video promo, full-on explanation and presentation, and laden with enough glossy literature to line the walls of the said centre, neither with so much as a bull's clue as to where the place was, what it was to house, who designed it, or indeed even the chequered saga of the whole proposal. Indeed the NCC rep there didn't seem to know very much either, and it ended up with myself and another chap explaining the scheme to them. Thought it summed up quite neatly the commitment to the built environment in the Irish media. The abiding memory of the day is: "oh - so this is the Liffey then?"

*points*


Off topic but in a similar vein, they had the times journalist who wrote about the nesbitt take over of arnotts on morning ireland last week, he went on about the size and scope of the northern quarter development and Aine asked him, well where is this northern quarter located then: between henry street and parnell street, something like that, oh i amn't reallty sure, he replied!

Tnx for the shots Graham,

I'm not a fan of the bland-brick facade either, but It will blend in perfectly with the Docklands!

Is the rest of that model designed by Roche?

I dont like the facade either. It just looks like a cylinder pushed through a block. Certainly won't rival the four courts or the Custom house.

At least the side facing the linear park has some relief on it now - originally was one big red blank facade (which looked awful)

The back view of the Convention Centre looks a bit kinda Art Nouveau-esqe/ Art Deco-esque...particularly hat middle bit with the curvy glass atrium-like feature. There is no need for all those trees planted at the front of it either. Kinda hides the lower view, the 'National Convention Centre' name and the street access part.

Are they actually building this at the mo or are they still talking about it? I haven't been down the docks in ages. The last time I took a ramble I nearly cried at the newly built uniform stumpy dross.

I like the back, it reminds me of that ballet place in the lincoln center in NYc, one of my favourite buildings. They are building it now, the big hole has certainly been dug.

I hear this project is well underway.Anybody got construction pics...looks pretty good

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/6127/conventioncentrefm5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5188/index03cc6cs5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I more looking forward to the bridge tbh.

cubix: basically they have dug the big hole and have built two concrete cores, corresponding to each side of the cylinder, to about ten story height.

Reminds me of Beaujolais nouveau - awful when it comes out and justs gets worse as time passes.

looks like a keg of guinness that is about to fall over...

can they think of something better?

convention centre progress:

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6500/dsc00178ls7.jpg

Have they detailed what stone the large plain brick areas will be of? Granite, limestone? It really had better be something very suitable and attractive. Definitely not calp!

although this building will be near the height of liberty hall, it hasn't received recognition as a high rise, perhaps because it's a bit on the bulky side. Are the lift shafts finished yet? is the main structure starting to go up? does anyone have some more recent photos?

although this building will be near the height of liberty hall, it hasn't received recognition as a high rise, perhaps because it's a bit on the bulky side.


I assume this model is to scale ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/NCC19-6-20072.jpg

in which case it is nothing like the height of liberty hall when compared to the sleep inducing PWC building next door. Just as well, it would be something of a monster given its profile.

although this building will be near the height of liberty hall, it hasn't received recognition as a high rise, perhaps because it's a bit on the bulky side.

Its 40m approx(to the cylinder top I believe), same as O'Connell bridge house

The main liftshafts are inside those 2 concrete cores that have gone up at the front of the site. The steel frame at the front has started going up too, you can see it between the 2 cores. Also it's just over 40m to the top of those concrete cores...the high point on the drum is higher than those again, I believe.

I believe it is to be over 50m when completed, proof again that liberty hall is no highrise building and should not be a benchmark to use.

Liberty Hall is only 59 meters tall, that's kinda close to 50 meters

Up to date construction pics are on the ccd website -

http://www.theccd.ie

Some internal 'fly through' stuff visible on the animated vid, they really pulled out all the stops for that one !!!

A lot of Dublin Tourism stock footage used several times in the same video... Great looking place though, Dublin - it seems!!!!

"Designed to meet the highest standards of environmental sustainability"

A paradox surely?
Still good to hear.

"Our venue is being constructed with concrete that has a zero carbon footprint. Long-term operational requirements have also been prioritised, including energy usage and waste management."

Have a picture of the cores going up, but it's at home. Quite enormous they are.

Special thanks to U2 for permission to use 'Beautiful Day' as the film soundtrack.
I scratch your back...

The concrete is all designed specifically to be "green".If you look up the company Ecocem, they are involved, It's carbon neutral concrete and it's their product.Just for anyone that's interested.

Only really noticed the other day how huge this is!
I didn't really notice the cores going up (or rather, i did, but they didn't elicit much of a response), but now that they're building the frame between then it's starting to get really bulky


as a side note, what are they doing just north of the bridges on the royal canal?
They've dammed up the canal, dug deeper than its previous base, and have dug a big pit about twice the width of the canal, too.

I'm not entirely sure where this hole is but I'd reckon its the Future systems Luas bridge near the spencer dock buildings

There are 2 pits in the canal, the one right beside the north quays bridge is going to be a new lock on the canal. Further up, the canal is being widened to it's original width..the original canal wall is buried there, and has been exposed from the sheriff st bridge down towards the liffey. The Luas bridge will be in the middle, but the widening of the canal is just restoring it to it's original width, it will be part of the development. The dam at the sheriff st end is to allow the work to go ahead,obviously.

Aha - thanks for that seanny.

Well there she is, glowering across the river.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/Archiseek/NationalConferenceCentre19-12-2007.jpg

Reminds me of the contraption that hosts the Stena HSS for some reason...

The NCC is really starting to take shape now. It will really look cool when finished; well compared to all the surrounding dross. They're putting the glass into the drum at the mo. This will be a great modern landmark sitting beside Calatrava's bridge.

It is the ugliest thing I have ever seen. Ever.
"really cool".......?????????????
????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
No, still don't see it................
"landmark", try lowpoint in the battle between big business and big names against real architecture and intelligent urban design.
I'd love to be more elequent and articulate an argument about it but I afraid the term F-UGLY-AS-MY-BIG-HAIRY-ARSE is the only one that comes to mind.

second that

Are you serious? the NCC is one of the most interesting buildings in Dublin in a long time

Let's say for the sake of argument that the coca-cola 500ml contour botle is a "good" piece of architecture, and the pepsi-cola 500ml bottle is a "bad" piece of architecture (not that I find either one particularly attractive or offencive, but bear with me) the coca-cola bottle is curvatious and elegant, the pepsi is dumb, akward and unrefined, so to boost sales pepsi give 50% extra free (you know the ones I'm talking about) so now the bottle is dumb, akward, unrefined, bulbus and fat. The NCC is like the pepsi bottle, its ugly, but no one would notice as much if it wasn't so monsterously big. It's like someone in the office blew everything up 200% on the photocopier and no one picked up on it before it went to site.
I'm afraid I can't take anyone seriously who defends this project. It is genuninely offencive e to suggent that this.... thing as any architectural merit.

I'm afraid I can't take anyone seriously who defends this project. It is genuninely offencive to suggent that this.... thing as any architectural merit.


The NCC may not appeal to you, I'm not too crazy about it myself, but to suggest that it has no architectural merit is not a tenable position, IMO.

As far as I can tell, the NCC is an exercise in civic monumentalism that attempts to connect with a very serious, two thousand year old, tradition. The juxtaposition of the square and the drum is a recurring theme in monumental architecture from the Pantheon through Palladio, the Renaissance, our own Four Courts, and into the 20th century with Gunnar Asplund's Stockholm Library.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7630/pantheon1gz4.jpg http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1135/fourcourts1vf6.jpg http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8537/asplundxn5.jpg http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/8913/nccqu8.jpg

If that attempt to connect with this tradition, and add a contemporary monument to the list, were to work, the NCC would be a very significant building indeed. If it doesn't come off, in my opinion, it was still worth trying.

Whatever else you can say about it, the NCC appears to be an original work (as far as I Know), which straight away, sets it apart from the generic derivitive stuff that predominates everywhere else in the city.

Like a lot of people, I have my doubts about the tilted drum, for a start and assuming that there is a compelling reason that it had to be tilted, I think it's tilted a few degrees too far. I also think the glass drum's connection with a curved entrance lobby is going to weaken the clarity of the two shapes. Another thing that I don't know is, how they're proposing to stop the glare of the sun beating in, assuming the rain clouds ever part, and lastly, I don't like the add-on bits on the roof that seem to change shape with every new render. These and the fact that building always looks like the profile of a hunkered down gorilla to me are my only real concerns.

On balance, notwithstanding the reservations noted above, I think I would be prepared to place a small wager, (possibly another bar of virtual chocolate), that this one may stand the test of time, though how I'm goin' to live long enough to collect my winnings, I haven't worked out.

Viewed from down the river a bit it looks quite good. well maybe that's bit strong of a word. it's something anyway.

8182

but from straight on the facade is atrociously boring, for the size of it

8181

the corners specifically

It's one of the few distinctive buildings that have appeared in Dublin in the last 10 or 20 years. It has the potential to achieve some sort of iconic status. Maybe that's overstating it but I'd be happy to see anything displace the false skyscraper cluster behind George's Quay as a symbol of modern Dublin.

Modern convention centres are always going to be somewhat bulky; this design doesn't attempt to hide the bulk - function before form - but distracts you from it with the intersecting cylinder. It is striking and the blandness of the north docks needs more striking modern buildings. I guess I like it - certainly relatively to the neighbouring modern buildings.

To say that it's "the ugliest building ever seen. EVER" must be .. like .. the supidist .. like.. thing ever like written... EVER.

I actually am beginning to like the look of it. It certainly has presence on the quays.

As part of a string of significant monumental buildings along the quays it will work quite well. Monumentality is a difficult thing to achieve in a modern idiom and I think this has an almost brutalist, powerful presence which will achieve that. Kevin Roche, while his buildings generally aren't to my taste, certainly knows his stuff and like Gunter pointed out above, this building has its roots based in a long tradition of monumental civic building.

It's a magnificent modern reinterpretation of the Four Courts and was always intended as so. How anybody can suggest this is the ugliest building in Dublin simply beggars belief.
I've no idea what the finished product will be like but certainly the NCC will be the Central Bank of this era, a genuinely interesting building, one of the best built in the boom years.

What is wrong with you people?
I find it utterly beyond comprehension that anyone who has studied architecture or has any sense of good taste could defend this building.
I give up.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

spoil_sport: you are wrong to give up without actually having explained what is wrong with this building or how it fails relative to its function; a convention center built as part of a docklands redevelopment project. Which similar buildings do you think it fails relative too and how, would a different type of convention center building embody as compelling a narrative?

I enjoy the ncc for the reasons gunter and so on have outlined above, it is intellectual without being whimsical; I think it is honest and impressive without, perhaps, being beautiful, I do think it is unusually good for a convention center and unusually good for a building on the north quay.

I'm tired of this "it's better than what's there" argument, what is arround it is pretty ugly, granted, but that's like comparing it to the ugly person who hangs out with uglier pople to make themselves look good. While I cannot think of a good convention centre off the top of my head but it is essentially a place of gathering, like an auditorium, or a stadium, and I'm sure we can muster up a few god examples of those. Again I don't buy the it's beter than other version of its type argument, that dosen't qualify it as good.
"how it fails relative to its function"
Please do not insult yourself or me by suggesting that it is enough that it fulfills its function, I thought architectural discourse had moved past that.
OK I'll conceed gunter his argument above, he's obviously done his research, but please look at the examples gunter has given, and then look at our NCC, it is the runt of the litter, the reject, the poorest example of that type of thing. OK, maybe it was worth trying, if only to show that it dosen't work. But it should have stayed on the model shelf in the office never to be let out. The proportions are wrong, the scale (of the drum) is wrong. Gunter there is no point saying "if" it works, have you been down there latley, I think there is enough of it there to make a judgment now.
I have already made the argument about scale in its wider "context".
I never disputed that it was "iconic", or "striking" or "monumental" or even "interesting" but it can be all these things and that still dosen't make it good.
My point is that it is bad architecture and that it is in the midst of worse architecture dosen't or shouldn't make that OK, especially when it is so fucking big.

I always supported the building of Roche's design. I thought it was rather striking the way the glass atrium drum intersects the block, sitting on the riverfront.Gunter sums it up very well, and ye can see the comparison in the photos. I think Roche's building, Calatrava's second proposed bridge and the new Lansdowne Road Stadium will be something architecturally substantial that we got out of the last years of the Celtic Tiger, given too that we are very conservative here in Ireland when it comes to architecture and the visual arts.

BTW Spoilsport, perhaps you could name me some good architecture that you like, in Dublin , Ireland or the rest of the world?

I don't think anyone is defending it solely on the basis that its better than whats there.

The comparison to the central bank is really good actually. While it goes against any instincts I might have re demolition of existing fabric, maintaining scale and grain and issues re height and wind and public space, I find the central bank to be a really enigmatic presence in the city.

It has a very powerful, muscular presence, befitting an institute of national importance and I keep finding amazing views to the bank from so many locations in the city. Its a real landmark in an older sense of the concept - a strong, formidable building, full of personality. Not quite beautiful but a compelling building nonetheless.

The NCC has the potential to have the same weighty presence on the Quays. I reserve my judgment until completion but right now I'm quite excited by the prospect.

GregF
Look, I'll say it again, not disagreeing with you, it is striking, but a bad smell can also be "striking".
I'm not sure I understand your motivation to ask me to name what I consider good architecture. I don't think it's relevant, and is a futile exercise. I hope your not asking me defing "good" and I hope it is not because you think the NCC is the best thing in the world ever, and your challenging me to name something better?
I was waiting for someone to mention the bridge. I think I've got myself in enough trouble so far so I'll leave it go. For what it's worth, I kinda like the new bridge in Venice, at least from the pictures, havn't seen it in the flesh yet. The form and structure look quiet elegant, but then the right camera angle can make most things look good, not sure about the glass steps, but anyway...
I think the central bank is great as it happens. But I don't see the comparrison, the central bank works because it is so big and contrasts so sharply with the historic settings around it, like the way black and white work well together, the NCC, and its context are like various shades of grey brown, if we're making that comparrison, then in some ways the NCC is not big enough, and it may also be worth mentioning Liberty Hall in this context.
"I don't think anyone is defending it solely on the basis that its better than whats there."
I disagree, and as I said, I don't think it has any other merits.
I really do give up this time

spoil_sport really lives up to his name. And say what you will about the building but a few posts up, you said you can't take me seriously for liking this building. I find that very rude and snobish, and I believe I'm owed an apology.

It's architecture, it's not personal.

and I would agree with you that there is something impersonal about this architecture in particular!

Firstly, I don't know who you're referring to when you use this "better than what's there" argument.
The majority of what has been built along the North Docks has been of indifferent quality, the NCC is a vastly different proposition.
I'm not defending it on the basis of it being better than what's there, I'm defending it on the basis that I think it's a mangificent concept. It's too early to judge the final execution as the building is not finished yet. (Should we judge the new criminal court complex on the basis of its current exterior too?)
Both of these projects - the criminal courts and the NCC - are designed to drag the city back to its locus along the river. Along those quays, we will have Heuston Station, the new courts complex, Guinness, Collins Barracks, the Four Courts, Civic Offices, the Custom House and as a new bookend, the conference centre.
That is what the NCC is attempting to achieve and will to me eyes - at least - be successful in doing so.

Don't forget the Clarence Hotel.....
And lets hope those cable cars get built too....

And as for the criminal courts, look at the McCulloughMulvin website, their competition entry for that was far superior.

Leaving the tilted drum aside for the moment,

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7766/r2d2mz1.jpg

I wonder will the NCC host any Star Wars conventions?

And as for the criminal courts, look at the McCulloughMulvin website, their competition entry for that was far superior.


would tend to agree with you there, pretty high standard of entries for that job overall.

I specifically didn't mention the Clarence and won't dignify the cable car comment.
I must say I admire your overweening sense that whatever you happen to think must be correct, that just because you have an opinion, it is therefore fact.

Look kefu, I'm not going to get personal. I have already outlined what I think of the convention centre and why. And I know I'm not the only one who dislikes it, and I'm sure someone else could put it more elequently than I have.

I just think Dublin deserves better, a lot better.

Look kefu, I'm not going to get personal. I have already outlined what I think of the convention centre and why. And I know I'm not the only one who dislikes it, and I'm sure someone else could put it more elequently than I have.

I just think Dublin deserves better, a lot better.

of course it does. that's why the architectural policies of the past must be scrapped. for the last twenty years people have complained about every single scheme of any interest that is mooted because it doesn't subscribe to established formulae. so, for example, the endless tat along the quays or near christchurch or in the docklands can be built without much objection, but when anything comes along to shake up this insipid orthodoxy, it receives floods of complaints. dublin hasn't produced architecture of much note since the 18th century. there's obviously something wrong with the attitude that it has whereby not a single building of any note has been constructed here since we apparently became more prosperous. every time anything radically different or forward looking is proposed, it is shot down. how anybody could object to the conference centre when every other building near it was built seemingly without a similar level of objection is beyond my ability to comprehend. just take a walk around the new business district near glories in barcelona, or around berlin, or around downtown manhattan for that matter to see how completely the docklands has been screwed up. for god's sake, there's nothing of any historical note near the conference centre, there's nothing near it even remotely approaching it in terms of quality, and the docklands is in danger of being the most sterile place in europe without the likes of it, so why don't you and everybody like you just shut the fuck up, and use your limited intellect to object to the annihilation of georgian dublin, and to the continued grottiness of the entire city centre.

"dublin hasn't produced architecture of much note since the 18th century. there's obviously something wrong with the attitude that it has whereby not a single building of any note has been constructed here since we apparently became more prosperous"

Ah come on now. Prize for the most rediculous comment of the day.

[jaysus, what have I got myself into, now I remember why I didn't bother posting any comments before now]

"dublin hasn't produced architecture of much note since the 18th century. there's obviously something wrong with the attitude that it has whereby not a single building of any note has been constructed here since we apparently became more prosperous"

Ah come on now. Prize for the most rediculous comment of the day.

[jaysus, what have I got myself into, now I remember why I didn't bother posting any comments before now]

well i'd be beholden to you for an example of a great modern building in dublin.

When I wrote the above comment, I thought: no, he couldn't possibly... could he? and then you did.
I was under the imperssion that this was a platform for those who had a real interest in architecture and planning to share their opinions. (And sometimes they won't agree, but then that's the point) If, shanekeane, your knowledge and appreciation of architecture in Dublin or Ireland is that limited then I dare say that you are not qualified or capable of making a comment on the matter. It is this type of unbridled ignorence that angers me, and I'm sure anyone else who loves architecture and works damn hard for the benefit of the public relm in Dublin or anywhere.
It is against my better judgment to even dignify a comment like that with a response, but it is my own failing and stupidity that I cannot let an argument go.
I feel like I'm under seige here, my original intent was never to be anti-development, or anti-interesting, or anti-iconic, Dublin and Irish architects have produced some magnificent architecture that is up to any international sandard. Infact the real kick in the teath of the conference centre is that it was though better to get some over-the-hill "name" architect to do. There is a big failing there somewhere, either a massive oversight by the DDDA in not recognising some of the countries top architects, or else our top architects are too busy doing regional arts centres and civic offices to roll up their sleves and get involved.
I have no problem with a "monumental" + "civic" + "interesting" + "original" building on the quayas or anywhere. Nor do I have any problem with international architects for that matter, I think the Liebeskind +Mateus projects have made a generally positive contribution to the docklands area.
Perhaps my original assertion "It is the ugliest thing I have ever seen. Ever." etc was a little strong and I apologise for the use of hyperbola, but I still maintain the NCC has more in comon with an American shopping mall, than with the central bank or the "tradition" of "civic monumentalism", or anything else it has been compared to here.
Anyone else agree with me?
I feel like the joker at the end of the Dark Knight after the ships fail to blow each other up.

When I wrote the above comment, I thought: no, he couldn't possibly... could he? and then you did.
I was under the imperssion that this was a platform for those who had a real interest in architecture and planning to share their opinions. (And sometimes they won't agree, but then that's the point) If, shanekeane, your knowledge and appreciation of architecture in Dublin or Ireland is that limited then I dare say that you are not qualified or capable of making a comment on the matter. It is this type of unbridled ignorence that angeres me, and I'm sure anyone else who loves architecture and works damn hard for the benefit of the public relm in Dublin or anywhere.
It is against my better judgment to even dignify a comment like that with a response, but it is my own failing and stupidity that I cannot let an argument go.
I feel like I'm under seige here, my original intent was never to be anti-development, or anti-interesting, or anti-iconic, Dublin and Irish architects have produced some magnificent architecture that is up to any international sandard. Infact the real kick in the teath of the conference centre is that it was though better to get some over-the-hill "name" architect to do. There is a big failing there somewhere, either a massive oversight by the DDDA in not recognising some of the countries top architects, or else our top architects are too busy doing regional arts centres and civic offices to roll up their sleves and get involved.
I have no problem with a "monumental" + "civic" + "interesting" + "original" building on the quayas or anywhere. Nor do I have any problem with international architects for that matter, I think the Liebeskind +Mateus projects have made a generally positive contribution to the docklands area.
Perhaps my original assertion "It is the ugliest thing I have ever seen. Ever." etc was a little strong and I apologise for the use of hyperbola, but I still maintain the NCC has more in comon with an American shopping mall, than with the central bank or the "tradition" of "civic monumentalism", or anything else it has been compared to here.
Anyone else agree with me?
I feel like the joker at the end of the Dark Knight when he's waiting for the ships to blow each other up.

let me reiterate, there's nothing even remotely good about anything built in dublin in the last twenty years. not on the docklands, not that rubbishy liebeskind building, not the extension the national gallery, nothing! my argument is that given this complete and utter paucity of anything good in dublin, then the moderate quality of the convention centre is welcome. it seems idiotic to me that this city can be blighted with redbrick barns all over the place, and then when something more interesting is designed, it's criticized because it's not good enough. good enough in comparison to what exactly? when it's finished it will be the best building in the docklands. and i foresee that when every other building on the river in the docklands is torn down in 20 years, the convention centre will be left standing. you are making the mistake of seeing this building as some sort of major statement, even while you criticize that attitude. nothing major about it. i think that if they put a convention centre type building where they built just about anything else in central dublin in the last twenty years, the city would be infinitely better.

Please, just so I can sleep tonight, reassure me, and tell me you have no real power what-so-ever about what does or dosen't get built in this city.

Please, just so I can sleep tonight, reassure me, and tell me you have no real power what-so-ever about what does or dosen't get built in this city.

in fairness, it couldn't be much worse could it. just to educate me, tell me one great building built in dublin recently, coz i honestly can't think of one.

I really don't know why I bother....
I'll humour you briefly, though I suspect I know the answer Ill get:
Off the top of my head and in no particular order:
Berkeley Library, Bus Arus, UCD restaurant, Central Bank,
deBlacamMeagher's wooden building temple bar and the the corner building at Castle Street.
O'Donnell+Tuomey's photographic archive in Temple Bar, Ranelagh school and Cherry Orchard school, and in my opinion their almost complete community centre in East Wall is one of the best projects realised in Dublin in recent years.
Though I have my reservations about the it I'll say Grafton's building on Merrion Row, and also worth mentioning is their new university building in Milan, which is a genuinely fantastic project and trully of the highest international standards....
But then apparently a good gimic and a shed load of glass qualifies as architecture these days....
P.S. Oh and I agree re the national gallery extension.

I really don't know why I bother....
I'll humour you briefly, though I suspect I know the answer Ill get:
Off the top of my head and in no particular order:
Berkeley Library, Bus Arus, UCD restaurant, Central Bank,
deBlacamMeagher's wooden building temple bar and the the corner building at Castle Street.
O'Donnell+Tuomey's photographic archive in Temple Bar, Ranelagh school and Cherry Orchard school, and in my opinion their almost complete community centre in East Wall is one of the best projects realised in Dublin in recent years.
Though I have my reservations about the it I'll say Grafton's building on Merrion Row, and also worth mentioning is their new university building in Milan, which is a genuinely fantastic project and trully of the highest international standards....
But then apparently a good gimic and a shed load of glass qualifies as architecture these days....

ok, well the berkeley library is good but not GREAT, certainly not of any international note. busaras is somewhat interesting but wasn't built in the last twenty years and is also quite ugly really, the ucd restaurant is not really in dublin city centre, but in any case i dont much like it, and the central bank was built more than twenty years ago and is an ok but not a great building. both the de Blacam and Meagher building are very nice and very interesting, but ultimately if they were built in many other cities they wouldn't merit much notice. it's simply because they are surrounded by mediocrity that they are able to shine.

let me point out that i believe the conference centre is as good as or better than these, but that it is still not a great building. i do however believe that the more moderately good buildings are constructed, the less room there will be for the likes of jury's hotel.

Spoil-sport: Sorry, I can let all your other spelling mistakes go, but, I-G-N-O-R-A-N-T

Spoil-sport: Sorry, I can let all your other spelling mistakes go, but, I-G-N-O-R-A-N-T

What a complete asshole you are. And a hypocritical one at that.

I'm tired of this "it's better than what's there" argument, what is arround it is pretty ugly, granted, but that's like comparing it to the ugly person who hangs out with uglier pople to make themselves look good. While I cannot think of a good convention centre off the top of my head but it is essentially a place of gathering, like an auditorium, or a stadium, and I'm sure we can muster up a few god examples of those. Again I don't buy the it's beter than other version of its type argument, that dosen't qualify it as good.
"how it fails relative to its function"


I think you might have misunderstood me on this point; I wasn't implying that its function excused ugliness, rather, that ugliness, in the sense of a certain awkwardness and brutality, helped express its function and that there was a virtue in that; further, I don't think that its surroundings excuse a poor building, but, rather, that a certain corporate monumentality is normal to dockland reclamations and therefore, in this case, help establish a sense of this place. I think, while not beautiful in a lyrical sense, it is impressive, muscular, honest and still playful.

Heres a render for yous!!!:p

I am but a half man without a spellcheck.

I always find it so sad when people are proud of their spelling, it is such an outdated skill; it is like being proud of knowing Morse code or being good at ballroom dancing.

Looks a very good render of the NCC!

I agree, very good point shanekeane!

Spoil-sport: Sorry for the silly cheap shot.

Carry on folks.

Time to kill in town... lousy camera phone, sorry.

Really does look quite big up close... Should be pretty epic if the hotel gets passed ABP.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/markhinds/Image006.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/markhinds/Image005.jpg

AIG needs to burn.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/markhinds/Image002.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/markhinds/Image022.jpg

Could be my phone or eyes but this looks pink to me
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/markhinds/Image029.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/markhinds/Image026.jpg

Dont know what this is behind, the centre or hotel...
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/markhinds/Image027.jpg

The thing beside it...
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/markhinds/Image007.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/markhinds/Image016.jpg

Excavations beside it for something else, what is it does anyone know?
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/markhinds/Image030.jpg


yeeeahp, lot of time to kill, crap shots sorry... meh

Good photos Ihateawake!

Good photos. ihateawake the building is liam carrolls development. AIB HQ. More renders on architects website. www.totarch.ie

Cheers, I was under the impression that AIB would be a high rise, no?

No i think they have made an agreement with liam at a price they couldnt refuse!!!

the render of the convention centre above with the lavender sky and the twinkly lights irritates me beyond my ability to express. the river does not look like that, the sky does not look like that, and the surrounding building do not look like that. the whole area looks grey and industrial. maybe if people were honest with these renders then so much unsuitable stuff would not be built in this country. is there no taking account of the light conditions when building in this country? if people took into account the greyness of the climate in dublin, then maybe they wouldn't be building grey buildings all over the place.

No i think they have made an agreement with liam at a price they couldnt refuse!!!

Kewl, more monotony so...

Can anyone tell me why they bother putting flags in front of buildings, such as those shown in the ICC render?
If I’m a Portuguese or Chinese national and don’t see my nation’s flag amongst the other six or seven usuals, am I supposed to feel a little less welcome?
Who decides which flag should be hoisted?
Perhaps it has something to do with languages spoken at the reception desk? Always found this flag business a little mysterious!:confused:

The PWC building really doesn't work with it at all, particularly when looking west. STW obviously decided to completely ignore the NCC when 'designing' their lesson in architectural monotony.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/markhinds/Image022.jpg

Thanks for pics ihateawake.

That PWC building is very ugly. The hoizontal lines looks kinda fussy.

More use of shiny and relective glass instead of dull concrete in the docks please to liven up the place!

Arghhhhh Citibank and PWC... both STW

Good photos. ihateawake the building is liam carrolls development. AIB HQ. More renders on architects website. www.totarch.ie

Do you mean the building in the picture is AIB? if so, why does it say Anglo Irish Bank on the front? Is the building behind it Block G?

That's the Anglo Irish bank HQ

Good photos. ihateawake the building is liam carrolls development. AIB HQ. More renders on architects website. www.totarch.ie

its anglo irish banks new HQ, not AIBs Both BOI and AIB are planning on conslidating there back offices on one site. Given the number of permises both are currently in this will require 2 big buildings probably high rise

its anglo irish banks new HQ, not AIBs Both BOI and AIB are planning on conslidating there back offices on one site. Given the number of permises both are currently in this will require 2 big buildings probably high rise

Super. Lets hope they actually get to build something

I think its beacuse Anglo Irish bank and Allied Irish Bank have similar initials

its anglo irish banks new HQ, not AIBs Both BOI and AIB are planning on conslidating there back offices on one site. Given the number of permises both are currently in this will require 2 big buildings probably high rise

Got confused!:confused: Yes its Anglo Irish Bank HQ. Now i hear the deal might be in jeopardy.:mad:

No it's the AIB and BOI back office not Anglo deal that's in trouble

http://ireland.archiseek.com/news/2008/000244.html

No it's the AIB and BOI back office not Anglo deal that's in trouble

Sorry!!!:confused:

Had a ramble down by the down the docks yesterday and could see that the NCC is set back a bit amost the dross. However the glass cylinder drum is echoed by the glass cylinder drum on the the roof of the offices across the river. Still overall, the docks is not impressive.

Anyone see the programme on RTE 1 Monday night where we had Irish 'celebs' tracing their families during the Great Famine time. Well it showed the young Guinness heiress down the docks at the famine memorial statues with a typically drab grey sky in the background as well as a rather drab cityscape. Was hard to believe we had just been through a building boom! The docks looked shit basically!

Sure does Greg F, sure does.
I was chattin' to the friendly security guard at the NCC the other day, not sure how reliable a source he is but he reckons they are constructing 'Irelands tallest building' directly behind the confrence centre, an astonishing 20 floors he told me.

Where the hotel that didn't get planning was?

Yep, not too reliable i suppose:D

I pass the area quite regulary but have only been down there a few times and my god what a truly depressing place it is,the people behind this regeneration project should be shot.Its a national embarrassment.

Might be over stating things a bit there luxor, but your entitled to your opinion !

Might be over stating things a bit there luxor, but your entitled to your opinion !

I couldn't agree more with luxor. The whole thing is the most horrendous development I've ever seen, and I'm from Limerick! Total lack of imagination, lack of colour, lack of atmosphere. It's a combination of the totally conservative view of building in this country, the complete vulgarity of those seeking profit, and the complete drabness of the Dublin climate, which was not taken into account when designing these grey buildings.

The orginal render on the PWC building was white, wasn't it??I've seen impressions of it like that.It's desperately depressing and slightly monolithic, with it's current shade of grey.And the grey granite in the landscaping.And the grey (looking) building behind it.Matches the grey sky and the murky grey liffey....!!!

You could always try some of that wonderful red-purple sandstone and silver-blue limestone (complete with fossils) from CORK (!) for cladding buildings in Dublin. Am I being provocative?

"working for profit, how vulgar", what do you work for?!

people working for profit don't care if they walk all over the public realm with their despicable money driven visions of our land, where every square metre of landscape is nothing but a profit opportunity. that's why we have retail parks all over the place. one of the reasons we have planning laws is that these people aren't given unadulterated control over how our country will look in the future, because they're nothing but a bunch of parochial nouveau riche jackasses without a scintilla of aesthetic sensibility. given the ridiculous, record breakingly harsh planning laws in this country, how did all this shit get built? apparently only interesting proposals are the ones that get banned.

In fairness the docklands is a disgrace.

Just look at this, a stone's throw up the river from the CC on the opposite bank;

8270

urban sprawl? density? commuter? traffic? transport? encroaching suburbs?

Wasn't there some sort of talk about some of these things a while back?

oh and the PWC was white in the render on their hoarding;

8271
it was a tad dirty by the time i took that pic!

ake: could you parse the first picture you posted and tell me exactly what is wrong with it? Looks like a perfectly decent and modulated inner-city residential development to me. If you want to cram everyone in Kowloon-style you're living on the wrong continent (possibly even universe).

If anybody is interested the view of the auditorium!!!:p

It's been said numerous times that the design of the National Conference Centre makes reference to the Gasometer.

Is there any truth to this?

The makings of an urban myth there I think!

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/2356/liffeyiv8.jpg
I've no idea how this picture came out, there's obviously some fool-proof setting on my camera for near dark situations.

kinda reminds me of the scene in Star Wars where a load of droids are lined up for selection by Luke Skywalker - all we need is a camp well-spoken 12-15 storey building to the left of R2D2 there and we have it...

I'm sorry for this but doesn't the covention centre look very unconventional!?

The sisk website have recently added a webcam to view the progress of the ncc. Heres the link!! http://www.sisk.ie/sisk/sisk/www/default.asp?magpage=25&id=575&sector_id=1&wid=2 Also added a birds eye pic of the site taken from sisks website!!:D

does anybody simple not like it, it looks so awkard

does anybody simple not like it, it looks so awkard Dont konw yet. I wait until the building is complete before i make judgement!!! :confused::confused:

Well, lostexpectation, we all know where I stand on this monstrocity by now.

"Dont konw yet. I wait until the building is complete before i make judgement!!!"

Ah come on now, its as good as.... sure, that little bit of cladding at the back will make all the difference... or maybe the whole structure at the moment is just temporary hoarding and the real building is inside, and it's all just a really bad joke... no? too much to ask?

short of a massive localised earthquake that completely demolishes it, I really can't see anything improving over the next few weeks and months.

Isn't it surprising that the cylinder isn't glassed across the top; perhaps the whole cylinder isn't articulated on the inside. Is the roof going to be used as a function area?